Analyzing Marketing Data for Intelligent Decision-Making With Nevin Jethmalani

Nevin Jethmalani is an e-commerce consultant and the Founder of Data Dish, a data analytics company that builds custom reports and helps with data visualization. With over 10 years of experience in e-commerce, Nevin consults for brands like Dr. Brandt Skincare, Tusk, and Jamie Foxx’s eyewear brand Privè Revaux. Before founding Data Dish, Nevin was the Co-founder and CEO of Looq (previously Notify Nearby).

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Nevin Jethmalani recounts his journey from e-commerce consulting to founding Data Dish
How transparency mitigates information silos
Why should you analyze data from an MER (marketing efficiency ratio) viewpoint?
How to measure repeat customer rates accurately
Evaluating attributed versus total revenue
How do you develop product messaging from your brand’s perspective?
Nevin’s preferred tools and e-commerce best practices
The impact of post-purchase survey data in e-commerce decision-making

In this episode…

Research shows that unstructured data is a challenge for 95% of businesses. While companies have unlimited access to data, few can leverage it to improve marketing strategies, productivity, and profit.

Firms often analyze incomplete, inaccurate, or disparate data sources, reducing their abilities to merge the information for intelligent decision-making. How can you gain real insights into data? According to e-commerce expert Nevin Jethmalani, data silos limit management teams' access to information required to create high-performing marketing campaigns. He recommends making data transparent to the team to enable thoughtful and intelligent decision-making.

In this episode of the Up Arrow Podcast, William Harris hosts e-commerce consultant and Founder of Data Dish, Nevin Jethmalani, to discuss how e-commerce businesses can measure marketing metrics accurately. Nevin examines the drawback of information silos, why you should analyze data from an MER perspective, and how to choose the precise metrics. He also shares marketing strategy tips, his favorite tools, and how Data Dish helps companies obtain insights using custom analytics.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode...

This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is a performance driven e-commerce marketing agency focused on finding the best opportunities for you to grow and scale your business.

Our paid search, social, and programmatic services have proven to increase traffic and ROAS, allowing you to make more money efficiently.

To learn more, visit www.elumynt.com

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Episode Transcript

Intro 0:03

Welcome to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris, featuring top business leaders sharing strategies and resources to get to the next level. Now, let's get started with the show.

William Harris 0:15

Everyone William Harris here, I'm the founder and CEO of Elumynt and the host of this podcast where I feature experts in the DTC industry sharing strategies on how to scale your business and achieve your goals. I'm excited about the guests that I have here today. Nevin Jethmalani. He is the founder of Data Dish. He's been working in e-commerce for the last 10 years. He's worked with brands ranging from Dr. Brandt and Jamie Foxx eyewear brand to smaller, more niche brands like Tusk, which is a leather goods brand. He started a data analytics company which builds custom reports and helps with data visualization at a fraction of the cost most agencies charge. And we met each other Nevin, because you reached out for help with ads, listen to me on a podcast we had a really good perspective on what as we should do. And I was trying to remember, you know which podcasts it was was that Kurt else's podcast, the unofficial Shopify podcast?

Nevin Jethmalani 1:06

Yeah, was this Kurt Alices podcast. And I think what really hooked me was the way that you've looked at MVR, because a lot of ad experts these days just look at in-platform rollouts. And I feel like these days Facebook and Google are trying to take credit for as much as they possibly can so that people just spend more and more money with them. And looking at it from an MVR point of view just made total sense. And that's kind of the direction. Yeah, exactly. Like it just you know, Edie to any extra dollar that you spend, you need to see an extra dollar and total revenue, not just extra dollar attributed revenue.

William Harris 1:40

Abs. Yes. We talked a lot about the difference between attributed revenue and actual revenue as as well. And so yeah, that podcast was the ROAS Death Spiral. I'll link to that in the comments, too. If anybody wants to go check out that episode. It was a really fun one. I actually flew out to Chicago and did that one live with him, which was pretty cool, too.

Nevin Jethmalani 1:58

Nice. I think there's also an article that goes along with it.

William Harris 2:02

Yes, there is. I can link that article as well. Yeah, yeah, that was super interesting. I want to get into the backstory. Before I do. I want to just quickly announce our sponsorship here. This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is an award-winning advertising agency optimizing e-commerce campaigns around profit. In fact, we've helped 13 of our customers get acquired with the largest one selling for nearly 800 million. Then we were ranked as the 12th fastest-growing agency in the world by Adweek. That said, on to the fun stuff. Nevin, how did you get into doing what you do?

Nevin Jethmalani 2:36

Yeah, so I started, I started a small company in the e-commerce space, and ended up running e-commerce running like clients. And ran e-commerce in-house for I think it was a couple of years, learned a lot, grow, and grew that brand. And just figured, hey, I could apply the same techniques that I'm using for this one brand, to multiple different brands. So basically got into e-comm consulting that way, I started working with a couple of different brands. And my business grows exclusively through word of mouth. So you know, people said good things about me spoke to me, were interested. And it just kind of snowballed from there. And then one of the big pain points that I saw, while consulting for brands was that management teams had no real insight into data, right? Like, either they had these robust data warehouses, and like no clear management or their dashboard built on top of them, or they didn't even have any infrastructure, right? Like there was nothing, no reporting, they were pulling reports from Shopify, pulling reports from Facebook, and like merging them together using Excel spreadsheets, and it was a nightmare. Anytime you wanted to pull any data, it would take you like hours. So basically started a company that would create these dashboards for management teams. And then obviously, those management teams are sorry, obviously, those dashboards can be applied for, you know, any level of the company. So if there was an affiliate dashboard, we need to build for an affiliate manager, we can do that.

William Harris 4:08

What I think that's the key, right? There's a lot of data out there we have, we have more data than we know what to do with and I think about this very often about like, the next version of the Renaissance. And so when we think about the Renaissance, there was this explosion of people that had access to books that maybe didn't have access to all of this knowledge and, and it created this just incredible time of learning and growth and development. But I think one of the things that's interesting about the explosion of data here, let's just say recently is that it almost creates sometimes more paralysis than it does anything else as far as making decisions. And oftentimes because people are looking at incomplete data, wrong data or you know, disparate data sources, and then they're not able to pull it all together, kind of like what you were describing. One of the things that you talked about is you know, you told me like make it transparent to the entire team. What do you mean by making it transparent to the entire team and how does that help e-commerce businesses?

Nevin Jethmalani 5:03

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm a big, big believer in communication, right? Like, when I go into companies, and there are silos and those companies, I feel like that's a huge area of opportunity, right? Because different people have different ideas, and getting them to all talk to each other. It means that, you know, ideas can be bounced off one another, right? So say, for example, you've got a PR manager who's working in a silo from an affiliate manager who's working in a silo from social media manager and an influencer manager, right? Like having those people sit down in the same room and just say, hey, why don't we coordinate on which influencers we're going to talk to, maybe the influencer person doesn't have as much of a budget, but the PR team has a bit of a budget, an extra budget to send gifts to, but the influencer person, you know, has a bunch of people that they are that they want to send gifts to, but can't because of budget limitations, right? Getting these three people in a room together allows them to bounce ideas off each other. I think that's huge. Yeah. And basically being Yeah, being transparent with like data around, you know, what the total goals of the company are, and feeding those total goals allows people to just say, hey, maybe we can try this, maybe you can try that.

William Harris 6:15

Yep. And I've seen this with a couple of brands, the idea of information silos, there's two examples that really jumped out at me, and maybe people have heard me say this before, but I'll repeat them just in case. One was a brand that essentially said they wanted to double their business month over month, they were really excited about they're gonna double their budget, this was a really good thing. And, you know, if we were just a normal agency, we would have just taken the money and ran with it and had a really good time with it, and then ended up with the money and, and really bad spot, because thankfully, we're the team who also looks at inventory. We said, Wait a minute, though, how much inventory Do you have? And they said, Well, we've only ordered 50%, more inventory. And it's like, well, you can't double the business. Now, unless there's something else that's going to change along these lines, maybe you're doubling your classes then too, but like there's, you know, you're gonna be very disappointed. And that was within their case, their marketing team and their, their inventory team. They weren't communicating, we were talking to both teams. So we're able to see that gap. But eliminating that. And the other time, I feel like there's oftentimes a lack of communication between the marketing teams and the finance teams as well, where there can be some significantly different goals that are happening there. And I think that being able to, like you said, eliminate those silos of information allows for much better, more thoughtful, intelligent decision-making across the board for teams.

Nevin Jethmalani 7:35

Oh, yeah, for sure. And then the other thing that's super important is a lot of this stuff is not necessarily like creating dashboards is great. But if you don't have, you know, notifications, going out what certain metrics are hit, or, you know, like messages going out, when inventories are low, things like that, you're screwed, because you don't have data information flowing properly, like everyone is not going to check it out for every day, right? Like, if there's any combat dashboard, the inventory team is not going to be checking that every day. Like, that's crazy. They've got better things to do. So you need to make sure that you're informing those teams at you know, the right time.

William Harris 8:12

What are some of those metrics that you would say are at the top of the food pyramid, if you would have ones that should be sent notifications? If this happens, these are like, you'll these five or three, or whatever you absolutely should be getting notifications for?

Nevin Jethmalani 8:28

Yeah, I mean, that's such a hard question, right? Because it's so different for every business, right? Like, if you're a venture, capital-backed startup that has debt doesn't really care about costs, right? All you care about is acquiring new customers, and doing so at a total blended CAC of XYZ based on ad spend. Right, then your metrics are going to be one thing, whereas if you're a business, that's a legacy business trying to, you know, have 30% EBIT margins, then your total metric in terms of CapEx and in terms of like daily metrics are just completely different. So I think it's a really it really boils down for what your business goals are. I'm working with a brand right now. I'm working with a brand right now that does that has a membership model. And their primary concern is just about how many new members they acquire every day, right? Because that's where they make their profit. But their portal order volume is not necessarily the total, the number one metric they look at, obviously, it's critical, right? Like membership members need to buy products in order to get value membership, but their primary profit driver is new memberships.

William Harris 9:33

So you know, to your point, it is going to be different for every business, and maybe it's hard to say what are the ones that need to be on that scorecard. But maybe there are metrics that you could say feel easier to eliminate. Are there metrics that you feel like a lot of people have on their scorecard that you're like, This metric doesn't mean what you think it means, and it frustrates me when brands overly focused on that metric.

Nevin Jethmalani 9:56

Yeah, and platforms are all has Yeah, Should we share that? I feel like that's yeah, I feel like that's a big one. I mean, I again, right. I'm not trying to say that it's completely useless. It has its value, right? Like it has its value for sure. But what I'm trying to say is that if you're going at a 1.5x row as or sorry, if you're looking at like, where, where there is value is that if it's if your campaign is operating at a point three rollouts, right, like, it's fair to assume that that is not profitable, regardless of what your MVR is, right? That is not the way to look at it. But what if you're at like a point eight rows, for example, and you're potentially hoping to get to a one or 1.2 in terms of a blended number, that might be feasible, right? So looking at that, from an MVR point of view is key.

William Harris 10:47

Yeah. And I like that I idea there was the biggest difference for me for in platform and where it has value is an understanding the change from within itself, right? And so if, if you're humming along nicely, and let's say that you've already done a holdout test, let's say you ran a geo holdout testing, you determined that a 1x row as in platform is the same as a 4x MVR, and actual real dollars coming along. And we've seen that for some brands. And so you know, that you're perfectly fine with that. You say, okay, as long as we're getting a 1x, in platform rise, we're good. If that changes directionally from itself, it drops to 0.5. That should be cause for alarm, because that's a change from what it was, if that goes from 1x to x, it should be a change cause for alarm to say, what has changed in our overall marketing mix in our LV in something. But why is there this change? That's, I'd say more where it has the value versus the actual number itself.

Nevin Jethmalani 11:45

Yeah, directionally. It's key, right? Like if you make a change to the campaign, and creative and directionally increases, that's significant. Yes, because all other variables are stagnant, other than the change you made?

William Harris 11:57

Yes. The other metric that I think really bothers me, and again, it has its place, but I feel like it's used incorrectly too often is a repeat purchase rate, there's so much value in understanding the repeat purchase rate, but the way that it's calculated oftentimes, in a lot of people's Shopify dashboard is just basically, and I'm drawing a blank on it, because I don't use it. But it's something along the lines of like, the amount of people that purchased repeat purchases from you that were the amount of purchases, let's say that you had 100 purchases, how many of those were repeat buyers versus new customers? And let's say there was, you know, 50%, were repeat buyers. The reason why I hate this metric, is because it tells you absolutely nothing about whether you did a good job or not this month, let's say that you doubled your ad spend. And so you got 200 new customers, and the same amount of repeat buyers came back 50, right? Well, now it's gonna say your repeat buyer rate was 25% instead of 50%. Is that good or bad? Well, it's neither one, it doesn't tell you anything. But you just see that your repeat buyer rate went from 50% 25%. You think it's a bad thing, but you had just as many repeat buyers? The difference was you also added a whole bunch of new customers. And that's a good thing. So you haven't done anything bad for your business?

Nevin Jethmalani 13:09

Oh, yeah, I'm 100% with you, in fact that when I come into a company, I, my goal is to decrease repeat customer rate, right, seeing that number increase is not good. Because that means you're just looking, you're just getting revenue from the same customers that have bought from you before. That's not the goal of most brands, their goal is to get new customers.

William Harris 13:29

Yes. And so not necessarily saying to decrease the repeat buyer at the customer rate. By decreasing the amount of people that are coming back and buying from you. It's just simply saying the average between how many are new versus repeat. That's where there needs to be a change. And you also want to see that you're acquiring new customers.

Nevin Jethmalani 13:47

I mean, any if you look at any metric, right? Look at conversion rate, and you look at it in a silo, it's a useless metric, right? Yeah. You cannot look at any number individually, like look at EBIT margin, right? It was just having this discussion with another client. And you know, having a 40% EBIT margin business is great. But when that business is doing $100 A day in revenue, it no longer is great anymore, right? Like, if you would rather have a million dollar business doing 10% You would have origins or would you rather have $100,000 business doing 40% EBIT margins? Right, like, right, looking at any metric in a silo makes no sense to me.

William Harris 14:26

Yeah, in you know, I, I've equated this oftentimes to an x-ray, where if you, you know, break your wrist, they're gonna look at, you know, the front view, the side view, they're looking at a couple of different views to understand the full break. And if they look at just one of those views, they will not correctly treat the breaking your bone and that's the same thing with data that oftentimes we try to we try to flatten data out too much. And we miss the full story of what's going on there. into your put in. Yeah,

Nevin Jethmalani 14:56

Yeah, well, one thing I'll say is that like, there's a sweet spot, right? Like, there's some people that do this, that is one extreme, then there's some people to take the other extreme and look at 1000 data points and try to overanalyze things exactly what you were talking about at the beginning, right? And that's also not the answer, right? There is a sweet spot in the middle, a dashboard for management teams that include like maybe five or so metrics that they want to optimize for that once those metrics are in balance, the whole goal, the goal of the business is met. Right? Yeah. So getting to those five metrics that the brand is the first step in running any six successful businesses, right? Like, you need to determine, Okay, what are these numbers? And what are these goals that we're optimizing for? And then you build a Strategy around optimizing for those goals?

William Harris 14:56

Yeah. And I think you and I both really like MVR. MVR is at the top of our list for various reasons. That's typically not, again, not for true for every single business. But it's a really good level set one. And I think the way you worded it that appreciate it is if you spend another dollar that needs to be another dollar incremental in actual real revenue, not just in platform row as Yeah, and then the other really good one along those lines is, is the actual amount of ad spend, where if this number changes in any significant way, as long as you stay where it needs to be, you're in a good spot. But if you're not tracking, you know, how much is being spent to your point where it's like, great, if you've got an MVR of me, I go from a 5x to a 10x. But you decrease the amount that spends, you know, by half there, or, you know, significantly more than that, you're in a spot where, okay, well, now maybe the brand is in trouble because the overall EBIT margin account in aggregate maybe is not very healthy.

Nevin Jethmalani 16:36

Well, I think it's again, MVR doesn't is any exception to this rule of looking at data and Silo, right? Like, if you are trying if your MVR is a five, for example, right? Or four whatever it might be. Now you want to try to acquire your want to try to have a prospecting campaign that's running at a 4x row as which would be technically the same Mar. That's not that's for most brands. It's not feasible, right? Like yes, of course, third-party retailers, and things like that can acquire customers at those rates. But in most cases, that's not feasible for like a normal DTC brand. So would now when you're looking at incremental revenue, you've got to look at a different metric of hey, yes, my M er, at a million dollars a month in revenue is x. But if I'm looking to do 1.5 million in revenue, I may need to spend $400,000, to do that. $500,000, which is still okay. Because all not 400k You're still making money at the bottom line.

William Harris 17:35

Right. And that's the key is figuring out whether or not you're making it on the bottom line, as opposed to just the top line, which I think a lot of people focus too much on the top, and they miss out on whether or not that's beneficial to the business.

Nevin Jethmalani 17:45

What do I mean these days? Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, the one last thing these days, cash is not flowing for e-comm businesses to Vc as it used to, right? So if you're not profitable, it's really, really tough to rate.

William Harris 17:59

Yeah, and that's not just true in e-comm. But that's in SaaS as well. And I'll say, Yeah, depending on when this actually goes live here, you know, SaaS I was it was Jason Lemkin maybe just shared something out on LinkedIn this morning, that appreciated talking about how, essentially the SaaS equivalent of let's say, AOV, just for our e-commerce, people here, it was down very significantly, 25% or something like that. And I'm actually seeing the same thing true for a lot of e-commerce brands. Right now, AOV is down. That's not true across every brand, but I'm seeing this on a number right now. And some of the reasons why I'm seeing this, or at least why I suppose we may be seeing this right now is people buying, let's just say, the cheaper priced options, or they're buying the sale or discount items, or there may be adding less to their cart. And so there's a number of things that may be causing this, and I'm seeing that CAC has stayed the same, um, for a lot of risks. CAC is fine. But for a lot of brands, because of the AOV, that MVR number is changing. And that's where you have to look at that. And you say, Okay, well, why was the MVR changing? And AOV is down? Why is AOV down? Maybe it's because people are spending a little bit less than they were before. And so you maybe are still acquiring customers the same, maybe still getting the same amount back. They're not spending as much as they were, and that can change the significance of what's going on to

Nevin Jethmalani 19:16

Yeah, I'd be curious to know how much of that is attributed to discounting as well.

William Harris 19:19

Well and that's one thing that we don't like too much. We try to push away from discounting too much because I do think that that's it can, it can get into a downside with people. But sometimes there are necessities in some brands, it's almost baked into the brand as a whole. And so you know, if you didn't, you can't operate the brand.

Nevin Jethmalani 19:38

I mean, yeah, it's kind of like a drug. Right? It works well, but, and then it's hard to get off of it.

William Harris 19:43

Absolutely. Um, I wanted to talk about some low-hanging fruit. Some of the things that you found that people are doing that are interesting in e-commerce, you're talking about, you know, maybe the product is phenomenal, but maybe somebody's not tracking it very well sending the data through Google On Facebook, what were some of those things that you were seeing on that from a low hanging fruit? And like where you're trying to help brands out that are, you know, just kind of getting into things?

Nevin Jethmalani 20:08

Yeah, I mean, this is kind of your bread and butter, right? Like the data piece, making sure that we're sending enough indicators to Facebook and Google, I think that's huge, a lot. One thing that a lot of brands miss is that they may just use the native pixel for Facebook and Google. But that misses out on a lot of data points, right? These days, the industry is trending towards server-side tracking, and making sure that you're sending all your data to Facebook because the new advantage plus and Performance Max campaign types are primarily leveraging data to optimize audiences and optimize ad creative, right? And if you're not sending enough data to Facebook and Google, then you're kind of just missing out on some of the opportunities that there are. Yeah, then these days with like,

William Harris 20:52

sorry, go ahead. Well, and not just missing out on attribution, which I think I've heard some people push back. They're like, well, it's okay. We don't use in-platform requests that much. Right. So they're, they're okay with it. But you're actually missing out on the algorithm's ability to understand if it did the right thing or not, so can make continually better decisions as it moves forward to

Nevin Jethmalani 21:13

Oh, yeah, I was I wasn't even talking about attribution I was talking about exactly. Yeah.

William Harris 21:18

I wanted to clarify for everybody else. No, no, yeah.

Nevin Jethmalani 21:21

Sorry. Yeah, for sure. Like you're missing out on total revenue, not attributed revenue. Because the platforms make decisions, the AI makes decisions based on the data that you send it. Like these are just big data processing models, right? Like, that's all they do. They process huge trots of data. So the more you give them, the better they do.

William Harris 21:42

Absolutely. And they have been trained now over trillions and trillions of data points. I don't know exactly what number but like lots of data points over the years here to where, you know, it's very effective if you give it the data in the right data and one of those being the amount of data that you're sending it based on. So here's one that I don't know if everybody knows, that we really like, which is, how can if you're focused on EBITDA, how can Google for instance, how can Google align with your goal of EBITDA, if you're not sharing that with Google? And so one of the things that we do for some brands is we actually will send in, you know that you get the margin or the specific profit margin that somebody is sending through per product. So that way, now Google has the ability instead of optimizing towards the top line revenue to optimize towards what's driving the most profit per purchase on these things. And that can make a significant difference in a company's bottom line, maybe without touching the top line, and in some cases, maybe lowering top line revenue, but having a bigger impact on the bottom line.

Nevin Jethmalani 22:47

Yeah, exactly. I think you can even upload cough cogs to Google Now. And it's there's so much stuff that you can put in these days to help it optimize,

William Harris 22:56

What are some other things that you would say are low-hanging fruit when you come in to work with a new brand, that you haven't worked with things that you say, I can almost guarantee that they are not doing this, or they are doing this, but they're doing it incorrectly, that can make a big difference?

Nevin Jethmalani 23:11

It varies so much by brand, there are certain brands that have just, you know, they've hired certain members of their team that, you know, are very good at that specific thing. But then other parts of the team are not built out specifically, right? Some brands will do a killer job at email, right? They will know exactly what they're doing. That team is just a well-oiled machine. But then you look at their influencer team. And there's just no real Strategy there. Right? Like they're just rolling, just throwing things at a wall and seeing what sticks. Whereas there's, there's a thinking and methodology behind which influencers to work with, right? I feel like understanding where you're is the one thing that I've seen that has helped a lot in the brands that I work with is a post-purchase survey. Those are huge in understanding where your customers are coming from, and then reinvesting in those areas, right? Like, if you see that, yes, you're sure you're seeing a lot of traffic come from Facebook, a lot of traffic coming from Google, whatever it is, and you reinvest there. Sure. But then what about people that are that are converting based off of influencers? Right? They may be attributed to Facebook because Facebook is where they saw the last click and made the purchase. But they actually came in through an influencer. And that influencer can be driving a lot more revenue than you probably expect them to. But following a post-purchase survey analysis, you'll see that hey, maybe we should run more campaigns with influencers. But looking at that, looking at some of the data that isn't as obvious and as black and white, I feel is key. And then just going in and seeing you know, as someone who has a good understanding of e-commerce as a whole, and taking that person's, like, having that personal look at the brand and saying hey, are you following best practices here, are you following there, and then coming in and saying, Hey, we can make some tweaks here, tweaks there. There's a lot of opportunity. Basically,

William Harris 23:56

a lot of people like to hate on best practices. And there are some best practices that I don't care for as well. But there's something to be said for saying, well, a circle tends to make a really good design for we'll maybe we'll find a better design for we'll Why don't we at least start with the circle, right? And I think that that's one of the things that we can both align on where it's like, Look, these are best practices for a reason. Let's at least start with what we know to be good across 1000s of other brands, and then you can iterate and change from there and test and tweak and go from there. But there are certain things and so are there a couple of best practices that you see not being implemented very well, or that you're like, Oh, these are a couple of things that I wish people would pay a little bit more attention to.

Nevin Jethmalani 25:50

I feel like one thing that I've noticed, as consistent notice consistently is that as a brand grows, they feel like they need to spend more on their tools and change their tools to adapt to their new size when the reality is is that the majority of things out there are able to be scaled. Yes. Now once you go from being a million-dollar brand to doing $100 million in revenue, do you need to change some things? Yes. But if you're going from one to two to four to five to 10, the reality is, is that the majority, a majority of your stack should be able to scale with that. Gross, assuming that you've implemented the right stack. And assuming that you have implemented the right best practices, right? Yeah, like you have a solid site with a solid theme and a solid developer, that person can help whether they're doing a million dollars in sales or $20 million in sales.

William Harris 26:47

Totally. So you know, you mentioned the right stack. Are there a couple of tools that you would say, Hey, these are my top three, four tools that I feel like it's not good? It's not true for every single brand. But these are some of my absolute favorites.

Nevin Jethmalani 27:00

Yeah, so Shopify is the obvious one, right? I actually only work with Shopify brands. Klaviyo is kind of the go-to for email. Elevar is my go-to for data analytics or data layer, right? They just know what they're doing. They're really, they're a really good team. Builder is kind of like my landing page builder tool. I'm trying to think...

William Harris 27:23

What about a post-purchase survey? One, you mentioned posts versus surveys. And yeah, actually did a really good study on that, too. Do you have one that you prefer?

Nevin Jethmalani 27:31

Yeah, Fairing is my go-to. know. I know, the founder well, and he is a great guy. And definitely my go-to tool.

William Harris 27:40

So I had Matt Barr on here. He's actually the very first episode, and totally agree with you, Fairing. So one of the things that I really liked about Fairing, and we do use other ones as well. But one of the things that I really like about them is they also have the UTM data with that with the survey data. And I think that that allows for a really rich interesting, like, cross-section B comparison to data points. And what we found is, and I'll have to link to this in there as well, the article that Grace Pietsch did, I want to say the difference in what people what was attributed to, let's say, direct traffic versus what people said that they came from, which was like Facebook ads were off by 80%, it was a significant number of people that were actually saying they came from Facebook, but that's not what it was getting credit for, from a UTM perspective. And I think that that's something that we always knew that there was at least some amount that was being missed. But there was a lot more at least this particular instance that was being missed that if you weren't doing this, you're gonna miss out on that data.

Nevin Jethmalani 28:37

Yeah, I think the one thing that this leads into my next point, right, like the one thing that people stop, when people that are in this business, they don't put themselves in the shoes of the customer, right? Think about yourself as a customer when you go and shop and you're looking, maybe not a $10 product. But you know, if you're going to spend 100 plus dollars on a product, and you see an ad on Facebook, you're not necessarily going to pull the trigger on $100, just right there. And then a lot of people will write some people obviously will, but a lot of people won't. So if you go and check Google, check Facebook a couple of times, see their ads a couple of times, and then ultimately say, Hey, I saw that out a while ago, but I really need that product right now. Are you gonna buy it, you're gonna go to Google, Google that product name, or Google the product, or a brand name? And you're and who's going to take credit for that Google is right. And Facebook is not going to may not they may but they may not get any attributed credit for that purchase. Especially if you saw it on your phone and then purchased on your, it on your computer, right? Majority of the time there's gonna be no attribution there. So yeah, I mean, post-purchase or survey key. And then the other cool thing that Fairing does is they extrapolate the revenue. So if you did 20% of your revenue through Facebook, it will then extrapolate and you but it only collected data on you know, half of that revenue because everyone doesn't fill out the post-purchase survey, then Fairing will extrapolate the revenue that it shows 40k If it only 50% of your purchasers bought,

William Harris 30:09

Which we manually did with them a while ago, because of exactly to your point where, you know, if you only if only 50% of people filled out the survey, but this is what was true for that 50%, then you can say, Okay, well, we can assume that this is likely, you know, what's missing this missing attribution piece. And that can make a big difference in making you helping people make an educated guess on where's the next best place to spend this next dollar.

Nevin Jethmalani 30:37

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, one of the other things that

William Harris 30:41

you and I were talking about was, in addition to the data side, is telling the brand, telling the story from the brand perspective and why that's important, and how that can be used. What are your thoughts about that?

Nevin Jethmalani 31:00

Yeah, so I'm a big believer in the product being the best, right? Like, if you're gonna sell a product has to be phenomenal. There's no question about that these days in the market, it's kind of a given, yeah, people aren't gonna, people aren't buying crap anymore. But in addition to that, if you're also going to upcharge them five times the cost of manufacturing that product, you need to tell them, you need to give them a compelling reason why, right? Like, it's pretty clear that a company like Bomba is up charging, you know, a significant amount for their 12 or $13 pair of socks. But they built this product that is just so so, so phenomenal, that people are willing to pay it, right, like their socks are just that much better than the next best thing. And people are willing to spend that money on the socks, right? And it's not because it's, well, yes, the product is, is good, but it's not necessarily because the product is good is because they've built this brand around something as simple as socks. And the story kind of goes that, you know, there are certain luxuries in life, that elevate your life, just that little bit, that make that 10 extra dollars on something in the grand scheme of things. The cost may not be significant, but it just elevates your life. Right?

William Harris 32:14

Yeah, Nevin is my hero. And he makes a great point. It'll I was thinking about even just the idea of a couple of brands that do this very well. One that I like, is illusionist, if you guys don't know who they are, I love magic. And the illusionist does a great job where they elevate, you know, every single one of their products, and you should go check out their product pages, but every single product that they release has like a two or three-minute, just amazing video about that product. And it does help tell that that story about the brand, as well as about the individual product, and then take it to the next level. What other brands do you feel are doing a great job of this? You know, you mentioned Vamos, but who else

Nevin Jethmalani 33:03

The Always Pen? I think they do a good job in this. It is a very expensive product. And at the end of the day, it's a pen, right? Sure to build a story around this pen. And a lot of that comes from influencer marketing, right? Where it just is one pan to do everything. Right, which is great. It solves the problem. And it Yeah, it's a it's a good product, right?

William Harris 33:27

Well, and if you can go from having to buy, you know, seven different pans. Sure that pan might be expensive for a pan, but it's a cost savings compared to buying the seven pens. And I think that that's where people say yeah, it's worth it to buy this one really great pen that can do all of these things that I needed to do it like you said, you're now.

Nevin Jethmalani 33:47

And it's it saves space, right like in the city. There's not you know, kitchens or small, right? You don't have these mega-size suburban kitchens where you can store seven or eight different paintings, you've got a tiny spot in the top of your cabinet where there's space for two pans.

William Harris 34:02

And you still want to cook well. Right? And so you still want quality. Um, one of the things that I was thinking about when it comes to just that idea of, of, you know, everybody wanting to buy, let's say quality like you said, it has to be the best if you're going to do this. And you mentioned nobody wants to buy crap. I agree with you, except for the idea that I would say there are a lot of people that still want to buy well they don't want to buy crap there are a lot of people that are willing to experiment with buying crap. They're just not going to do it on the brand side and this is where it's like they're gonna buy that crap from T mu or maybe to call it someone else like wish right like there's a lot of places that they like to go and experiment with seeing if they can you know, get away with buying absolute garbage. Not that everything that you buy from those places is garbage, but that we've all been in the situation where you ordered something it's not at all what you ordered when you get that like what is this? Yeah. It's so mean. Yeah.

Nevin Jethmalani 34:56

To do the concept is huge. Yes. Right. Sorry. Go ahead.

William Harris 34:59

Well, To compete as a brand, you have to be willing to show how you stand out from all of those other options because it's very easy to go to Amazon and buy whatever is the low-cost option of that unless you stand out in some way as being like you said marginally better. It doesn't even have to be radically better, but enough to where it's noticeable.

Nevin Jethmalani 35:20

Yeah. And I mean, you do get a lot of revenue from the convenience, right? I was discussing this with someone the other day, and people in the in US specifically are just all about convenience, right? Like, sure. They don't want to go to Amazon and try five different products, one of which may work as well as the main product that you know, the original product that they're looking for, right? Like I'm sure people can go to all these platforms, find a dupe and get a product for a cheaper price. But now Is it worth ordering three different items from Amazon and having to return two of them to save 30 or $40 or $50? Right now, where the Dukes work really well is on tick-tock when someone vouches for it or makes a video saying, hey, a Lululemon dude, right? Like that crushes it because that add, that's the convenience factor, right? Like getting to your customers at the right time in the right way. That's the real secret, right? Making sure that you're making whatever you're doing whatever your messaging is, is adding convenience and time back to someone's life, right and luxury back to someone's life. That's how you really figure out e-commerce.

William Harris 36:31

And here's the thing if the knockoffs can do an exceptional job at doing this on tick-tock, there's no excuse for the real brand, the higher quality one from doing the same thing. The reason why a lot of them don't do it is that I think that they're, they're too scared or too uncomfortable with a naive to creating the right tick-tock content, you have to be willing to push the brand guidelines just a little bit to say, how do we make this a little bit more the style that people are accustomed to on tick tock?

Nevin Jethmalani 37:05

I think yeah, that's definitely some brands, but some brands just don't have the resources, right? Like, you'll be shocked at some of these larger organizations that don't have someone inside that knows that this is the content that does well on Tik Tok, right? Yeah, like they don't want they don't know the content, the content that works on Tik Tok, and too, they don't have a team to actually execute all that, right? Yeah, like they don't have someone to find those influencers and get people to make those videos the way that they're supposed to be made. And then these dudes do well, because it's content creators creating that, and those content creators get affiliate revenue. So they're there. It's it's a mutually beneficial situation. And they're getting a crazy amount of engagement in their content because they're producing content that their customers want. Or they're not customers at this point. Their followers,

William Harris 37:50

their followers, right? Well, those customers will point but yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So how, how could certain brands, how do they tell the right story? So let's say, for instance, and this happened recently, and I won't say who it was, there's a toothbrush brand that I was asked to look at. And the toothbrush to me, did not look any different than anything I could find on, you know, Teemu, for instance, or Alibaba or whatever, it didn't look anything. Even the product imagery did not look any different. But they were priced significantly different from what you're going to find their, you know, ideal on the ad side. And so I don't know how, how can a brand like that? Where can they start to figure out how to level up what they're saying in the marketplace, on their website, stuff like that, you know, their resources, tools? Is that something that you hit? Or how do you go about helping brands with that?

Nevin Jethmalani 38:46

Yeah, I mean, it's all about storytelling at that point, right? Like, why are you better than the next best thing? Yeah, what problem? Do you solve that the next best thing cancel? Right? Like, what are you doing that is so different from the product that you're competing with, that people have to once they come to your page? They're like, I need this in my life. Right? Like, you need to solve those questions. Now, if the product isn't good, that's what I said from the very beginning, right? If the product doesn't stand out, or have anything unique, it's a tough sell. Right? That you can tell you can storyteller as much as you want. But it's going to be an uphill battle. Always. I'm not saying there aren't brands that have done it, right. Like, there are so many brands that have just created such a brilliant story around such a generic product, but it is an uphill battle. Right? And who knows how much profit those trends are bringing yet right? See if you grow millions of dollars of venture capital funding at any business, it will grow like Facebook Ads work, right? Yes, it's just expensive.

William Harris 39:45

I think, you know, one of the things that we have tried to do at least while we're not necessarily product positioning experts in the idea of like a true positioning. When I think about somebody who really deals with like branding, and positioning, one of the people might go too, is David Brier, he wrote a book called Brand Intervention Daymond. John wrote the foreword to it's an absolutely incredible book, the font is like, I don't know, 50 points. So it's, it looks like a lot bigger book than it really is. But there are a lot of great examples. One of the ways that I tried to do this with our team, when we're looking through this is what are people saying about you and about your competitors in your own Facebook ads and their Facebook ads on Reddit, on other forums? Where are people? Where do people go on Twitter, to to basically badmouth your competitors and say all the things they don't like about them? That's your opportunity to figure out how to you stand out from that. So if it's, Hey, this, you know, design looks great, but the zipper sucks, okay, great. Oh, zipper, or is our zipper better? If we're using a better zipper, can we make sure that we're calling that out in the ad in a way that shows just how good our zipper is, and not in like a cheesy way, or let's just say, like an ineffective way, but go all out if your zipper is the best zipper that exists on the planet, prove it. And there's a phone case company that I really liked, that does a good job with this. I think it's a mouse, if I remember correctly, and they basically take the iPhone, take it up in a helicopter dropped the iPhone out of the helicopter and show that it's still okay after it lands on the ground. And it's like, that is a very creative way to show that this is a heavy-duty. Well worth that case. And now you look at the price of whatever it is 50 bucks or something you say, that's maybe worth the 50 bucks.

Nevin Jethmalani 39:47

Yeah exactly.

William Harris 40:01

You're saying with like a little bullet point like, hey, 25% carbon shell fiber, blah, blah, blah, you're like, alright, that's fine. Just prove it, put it put it on the helicopter and throw it out the window.

Nevin Jethmalani 41:36

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's it's, that is definitely like a big example. Right? Like for sure that I can see that. Right. Yeah, yeah. But like, it can get so much more simple than that. Right? Like, have an influencer talk about your product, just saying that they use it all the time and that it's the best product. Yeah. And it's changed their life. Right? You get someone to say that, run that on a Facebook ad? And it's hard to say no to that. Right. Like, yeah, I'll give you an example. I think AG One has done this. Well, not perfectly, but Well, it's some of the ad creatives, right? They just have so many people that love the product. And that use the product, that they create those UGC ads, and they show the benefit of the product they show people actually, you know, expressing their change in lifestyle from the product. And that's what gets it to be so successful.

William Harris 42:26

Yeah, well, and I think you've said it before, to me remove skepticism. And we'll come and they're gonna see skepticism on the website. And one of the things is, is maybe not to be too sensationalist in the idea where it's like, yeah, okay, I've already been duped by that already. You know, how can I know for sure this is real? And that's where I think, you know, the UGC and the influencers can be impactful if they sound much more genuine, and they show it in reasonable context, maybe even showing some of the downsides potentially, where it's like, hey, it's great for this, this and this not ideal for this. If this is your exact situation, this is not the right one for you or something along those lines.

Nevin Jethmalani 43:04

Yeah. 100%, right. Like if you, if you are aware that your claim you're making, okay, say, for example, you're saying 100% guarantee that this thing works. Okay, but you're not backing it up with anything right now, the customer is going to be skeptical and say, oh, yeah, they're just saying 100% guarantee, what happens if they don't guarantee it will back up your claim, right? Say that you can return the product, right? Say that the product is, you know, 100% effective, and you're ready to support that with XYZ case studies or clinical claims, whatever it might be just a preempt the skepticisms. What I would say,

William Harris 43:37

My mentor, and good friend Dave Mortensen, he founded Anytime Fitness, I don't know if you're familiar with the Anytime Fitness brand franchise. One of the things he told me that I should add to our website is basically a quote from somebody who we didn't succeed with because we're not going to succeed as an agency with every single client. Yeah. And there are times where, you know, hey, we didn't succeed, but the particular client that I'm thinking of has sent us numerous leads numerous referrals, even though we didn't find success for him. And his reason for it is he said, Yeah, but I've never found another agency that harder to try to find it that worked more methodically like I know for a fact that you guys did everything that was possible and that it was on our side that we didn't quite have our product market fit figured out. And so I know that anyone I send you, they have the best chance of succeeding with you. And it's like, that's a really interesting thing. But to your point, it's like, hey, let's remove skepticism. We've got some really incredible case studies. How about showing a case study where we didn't succeed?

Nevin Jethmalani 44:37

Yeah. I mean, I don't know how many people have something like that. That's like a really tough thing to get, right? Sure. Yeah, like, yeah, it's a really unique piece of content. If you can generate something like that, then 100% I can see it working. Right.

William Harris 44:52

Um, I want to be respectful of time. We're coming up on the end and I like to dig into a little bit of the personal side of who Nevin Jeth is. Honey. So one of the things we were talking about, too, is some stories from earlier careers like what? What has enabled you to be successful in your role? Were there things that you did early in your career Early in, you know, adult life that has positioned you? Well?

Nevin Jethmalani 45:17

The tough question, I think that one of the core beliefs that I have is building infrastructure, right? Not looking at a relationship as a, you know, Hey, bring Nevin on and tomorrow your revenue is going to double ratio. Yeah, that's an exaggeration, but like, I'm not the guy that's going to come in, and he's, you're not going to see an immediate impact, right? Like you're gonna It's, there's a long tail approach, right? Building this relationship, and storytelling with the customer takes time. And creating that relationship with the customer, is something that you only see the effects of later on, right? Do you see the same, obviously, there's some low-hanging fruit, email marketing isn't working. Yes, SMS is not being done, things like that, you can definitely take advantage of it at an early at quicker pace. But like developing the core infrastructure of a site, that you're optimized for site speed, your data is flowing to the right places at the right time. You're sending the right indicators to Google and Facebook, right? Like those things are not going to be you know, instantaneous. Winners, right? Yes, you'll see marginal growth from them in this short term, but the real growth that you're gonna see is going to be over the long term. And I'm a big believer in that. And that's worked really well for me, right? Like I've worked with brands for six months, and haven't seen have seen marginal 10% increase in revenue. But then boom, that seven months comes that eight months come, then you're seeing 3040 50% growth, and it's just like, Wow, all that work over the last six months is finally paying off. It's the best feeling.

William Harris 46:44

So your brain, I love the way that it works. And we've talked about this a number of times before you you're you're always thinking, you're always thinking, and I can remember times where maybe I've sent you an email back, which I get in trouble for my team for doing sometimes I blame it on being you know, the CEO at like, midnight or something, and it's like, oh, real quick, and you respond. And I'm like, Why did you just respond? We shouldn't respond to it but your brain is always going. But you know, what are some things that you do to wind down like or what are some things you're like, hey, here's how I unwind at the end of the day to like, quiet your brain?

Nevin Jethmalani 47:23

I think watching TV is my big thing. But when I'm watching TV, I'm still I still have my laptop next to me here. I'm still on my phone. So if I get an email, and it's like some mine, like the mindless show, I'll still pick up my laptop, pick up my phone and respond, right? It's kinda like, well, I've got to do it tomorrow anyways, might as well just get out of the way now. And honestly, like, I feel I feel much more at ease when my inbox I use superhuman. So my inbox is always at zero. So I feel much more at ease when there's nothing in my inbox like immediately that it needs to do because otherwise, I know I got to wake up the next morning. And that's going to be pending.

William Harris 47:59

I can completely relate to that. What shows though, what's your mindless show that you can watch or one that you just like now when this one's on, though? I'm not very good at being a real response. I need to watch this one. Or maybe there isn't one like that.

Nevin Jethmalani 48:14

Yeah, and rewatching Breaking Bad right now. Yeah. And that's, that's one of those that I like to focus on because the story is super interesting. But it's on my mind list shows. Oh, yeah, it's just a such such a well-made show. Like everything about it is so well thought out. And then some of my mindless shows like Friends, Big Bang Theory, and New Girl. A few of my go-tos

William Harris 48:35

I’m with you on The Big Bang Theory. I don't know if you know this, but I've been referred to as Sheldon Cooper on more than one occasion from completely different people. So I don't think they mentioned it as a compliment, but I am the guy who's like, actually, do you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, you are Sheldon. My other really good show. That's funny love. If you can't tell here is Psych. I think it's right beside you. That show and I think the reason why I do like that show is just the playfulness of it. It is very light-hearted, playful, and probably similar to Friends. Right? Yes. Like just just good-hearted, easygoing.

Nevin Jethmalani 49:11

Yeah, for sure. I haven't checked it out. But I definitely will.

William Harris 49:15

What about, you know, let's say, any books or mentors or inspiration, you know, is there anything along those lines that you're like, hey, this is a good book or website or podcast that you'd like to kind of glean from and enjoy and learn from?

Nevin Jethmalani 49:32

Yeah. I think in terms of podcasts, as we spoke about earlier, the all in the, credit clusters podcast, is good. I also listened to the all-in-pod death wishes come more general it's not necessarily e-comm Focus, but I think they do a good job and of understanding or putting a good summary together of like how different industries and investing is. I think that the way that investing works, makes a lot of sense to any business understanding that is key. I think also going back to one of your other questions about, like, how you started coding is huge for me. learning to code was like one thing that really changed the way that I look at businesses. And it's just the mentality of a developer, I think is unique. So that was a big change for me. And then so I like to keep up with anything coding related as well. Anything new in the space I like to stay up to date on.

William Harris 50:28

Yeah, there's nothing new in that space at all right now. Is there AI is like nothing overtaking and there's a lot where that is, that is its own coding language, if you would, of just making sure that you format the right prompt, you know, to get the answer that you want out of it.

Nevin Jethmalani 50:47

Yeah, I was just at shop talk. And yeah, oh, so much. Yeah, I was just a shot clock. And they were they were a bunch of panelists on Trump talking every time. Not every time but a bunch of time. A bunch of times AI came up. They were like, there can't be a panel without an AI conversation. And this is a podcast.

William Harris 51:05

Yeah, you can't you know, omnipresent right now. Yeah, I got X crazy heard. And I asked it some real heavy-hitting questions about you basically, it's like is a what was a hot dog a sandwich is cereal soup. I asked it all of the really most challenging questions in the world. And it's interesting, interesting answers. It doesn't want to make a choice. That's the one thing is, you know, AI is definitely still a people pleaser. It's like, I want to tell you, whatever you want to hear. And I want your answer.

Nevin Jethmalani 51:35

Yeah, exactly. It definitely is. There's definitely some fine-tuning that needs to be done. But the models are insane. Right now. It gets crazy how sophisticated they are and how much they can do.

William Harris 51:45

Yeah, I'm excited to see what happens a year from now, I think a year from now is when it'll start to get a little bit more interesting right now, I think it's still very novel. Some people are doing some interesting things with it. But a lot of this is still it's not, it's not quite where it needs to be hyper useful in a lot of areas, but it's right around the corner. It's in the learning mode. It's like a three-year-old, it's learning a new way.

Nevin Jethmalani 52:06

I think the craziest. The craziest thing is the rate at which it's changing. Right? Right. Not the not the current state of it. But the rate at which things are happening really is just mind-blowing. Yeah, like we talk about the way that chips are growing in terms of, like how quickly a processor's speeds increase. This is like 10x that, right? Yes. Like, it's just growing so much faster. There's there. You know, I still remember months ago, when AI when all this stuff came up, there was talk about an auto GPT. Right, a few months later, what do we have something that's actually doing that? Yeah, right. Yeah, that's crazy. You would expect these innovations over years of time. And because of how this is being built, it's not necessarily open source, but it's a lot. It's very developer friendly. And because of that, it's just growing so so quickly.

William Harris 52:58

Yeah, yeah, we're just scratching the surface of what's going to be capable there. And I think the biggest thing there is going to be determined on the outcome that somebody intends for it, I think that's what limits a lot of this is, is a lot of AI has, has maybe been programmed with the wrong end goal. But I think that it's going to learn or learn that I think the right AIs are going to come out with the right end goal and an example of this would be a lot of AIS in the ad space are obviously still keyed around, let's say row ads or they're keyed around top-line revenue. And so many of them miss the underlying EBITDA perspective, but I think we're just, it's just around the corner. And there's a lot of stuff we're doing with that already. But there's a lot of stuff that I think that you know, it will continue to develop. Yeah, I wanted to ask a final question then as we get into this. I like to ask you something silly on every single one of them. And the one I'm going to do for you here is if you ever play balderdash. Are you familiar with the game Balderdash? Where you have a word? And you have to come up with a fake definition for it that sounds believable.

Nevin Jethmalani 54:02

Just a moment..

William Harris 54:08

All good. Sorry. So back to the idea of balderdash or giving you a word. So I'm gonna give you an absolutely random word that you probably don't know the definition of it's it's very random. And your goal is to just give us a definition. That sounds believable. That you're like, oh, clearly that's this. So your word is testing my acting skills. Yeah, there you go. Your Word is quincunx. I don't know that I'm pronouncing it correctly, but it is spelled QUINCUN X quincunx. What is quincunx Devon

Nevin Jethmalani 54:48

When conchs is a synonym for a wine bottle, so something that you pour wine into, helps to count the bottle the wine and help store it as well.

William Harris 54:59

If that makes sense, obviously, that's, that's obviously what it is. For those of you who don't know what it is, neither do I please go look it up and tell me what it is. And let me know. Actually, you know, I've got it pulled up, but I'm not going to tell you, I want you to look it up. Okay, final thoughts. If there was one piece of information you would share with anybody in this could be literally anybody just have the opportunity to say anything. This could be young entrepreneurs, this could be seasoned vets. What's the piece of final advice that you would give somebody listening in on this podcast?

Nevin Jethmalani 55:31

Yeah, I would say work on work on a goal-oriented mindset, right? Like, don't worry about what you do to achieve that goal. Try to achieve the goal that you're looking to achieve, as opposed to worrying about the journey to get there, right. Like if you're trying to optimize for revenue growth, right? Find a creative and unique solution to get to that point. Don't worry about the journey, right? Like, as long as you get there. That's what's important. Whether there's failures along the way, that sign that's part of the journey, right? Yeah. Keep that goal in mind. And that's how I work with all my clients, right? Like I asked them, What goal are they trying to optimize for? What is the key metric that they want to optimize for? And that's when we get to that goal?

William Harris 56:13

And I would almost guarantee that there will be ups and downs on that. And so it's not a linear path. I'm Devin, if people want to follow you, get in touch with you and work with you? What's the best way for them to reach out?

Nevin Jethmalani 56:26

Yeah, shoot me an email to Nevin at datadish.io. I'm also available on social Devon Gianni as my full name; you'll be able to find me on most platforms. I check everything. I don't really use much of them. But I check it all. I love it. It'll make its way to me. Yeah, but Nevena data dish.io is the best way. You will

William Harris 56:46

reply at midnight while watching the Big Bang Theory. I'm just kidding. Yep. Exactly. Well, Devin, I really appreciate you coming out here today. sharing your knowledge with us and everybody. I appreciate you. chiming in

Nevin Jethmalani 56:58

An awesome conversation. Yep. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been great. Thanks.

William Harris 57:03

Have a great day. You too.

Outro 57:07

Thanks for listening to the up arrow podcast with William Harris. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.

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