Email Personalization and Segmentation: $38M in 10 Weeks with Josh Behr

Josh Behr is the Founder and CEO of AMB Interactive, a leading email and SMS marketing agency enabling e-commerce businesses to grow their revenue and customer loyalty. With over nine years of digital marketing experience, he has worked with the world’s most renowned apparel brands managing email lists, launching viral campaigns, and generating millions of dollars in sales. Josh is a Klaviyo elite partner and a speaker at various industry events, sharing the latest trends and best practices in email and SMS marketing.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

From breaking the Spotify sales record to becoming a Klaviyo partner: Josh Behr’s career story
How segmenting your email list boosts profitability
Key considerations for email personalization
Josh talks about contact enrichment for B2C companies
The importance of email designs
What metrics should you track on email campaigns?
Is anonymous user tracking practical?
How to segment your email list
Case studies of gold standard email personalization
Why the Jets’ losing streak inspired Josh to become an entrepreneur

In this episode…

If your email list has more than a few hundred thousand contacts, you should probably consider segmenting it. Many of these users have never engaged beyond merely visiting your website and are hurting your profitability. How can you personalize your emails to target repeat customers?

Josh Behr, an email marketing thought leader, segmented his email list from two million after receiving thousands of customer service complaints with each email sent. He recommends segmenting lists based on viewing and purchasing habits and personalizing emails by mentioning recently viewed products in the subject lines. You can also collect customer profile information based on their purchases, including size and color, further curating the experience. Rather than focusing exclusively on open and click rates, export your email campaigns periodically to assess viewed product and checkout rates.

In this episode of the Up Arrow Podcast, William Harris joins Josh Behr, the Founder and CEO of AMB Interactive, who shares email personalization tactics. Josh explains why you shouldn’t rely on anonymous user tracking, contact enrichment for B2C companies, and the significance of email designs.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode

This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is a performance-driven e-commerce marketing agency focused on finding the best opportunities for you to grow and scale your business.

Our paid search, social, and programmatic services have proven to increase traffic and ROAS, allowing you to make more money efficiently.

To learn more, visit www.elumynt.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:03

Welcome to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris, featuring top business leaders sharing strategies and resources to get to the next level. Now, let's get started with the show.

William Harris 0:15

Everyone, I'm William Harris. I'm the founder and CEO of Elumynt and the host of the Up Arrow Podcast where I feature the best minds in e-commerce to help you scale from 10 million to 100 million and far, far, far beyond that as well. Today, I have Josh Behr, a leading email and SMS marketing agency that helps e-commerce businesses grow their revenue and customer loyalty. With over nine years of experience in digital marketing. He's worked with some of the largest apparel brands in the world managing massive email lists over 16 million users launching viral campaigns and generating millions in sales 38 million in 10 weeks. That's an interesting one. We might talk about that as well. Today. Here. Josh, it is good to have you here.

Josh Behr 0:56

Thank you for having me. How you doing today?

William Harris 0:58

Yeah, pretty good about you. And we you were introduced to me by David Herman. We kind of shared an early account. How did that end up happening? Do you remember?

Josh Behr 1:09

So I spoke at KBOs first conference back in 2018, I happen to meet a prospective client there that ended up working with me for email. And at that time, I was running paid social ads, paid search ads, thankfully, don't do that anymore. And one of the things the client asked me to do was look inside the ad account, to see if I could find any ways of improving. So at this time, I don't know about the e-commerce community, I'm not on Twitter or anything else. So I'm going through the account. And I felt like such a fool. And I was looking at this person's work and saying, Wow, this is absolutely like amazing work. I called the client back. And I said, I don't know this, whoever's running the account, you're you are an amazing hands, and actually took a lot of the learnings from things that were happening inside the account and applied into the accounts that I was working on at that time.

William Harris 2:05

Yeah, David is a he's a brilliant marketer, and a genuinely good guy. Worth a follow on Twitter, if nothing else for updates about what high speed chases there in LA. Yeah,

Josh Behr 2:20

that's the only problem that I know is that he's a Dodgers fan as a lifelong Mets fan. You know, he's got to, you know, go to a new team. Yep.

William Harris 2:29

Well, I'm excited to dig into this. Before we do, I want to announce our sponsor, this episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is an award winning advertising agency, optimizing e-commerce campaigns around profit. In fact, we've helped their team our customers get acquired with one selling for nearly 800,000,001 That I peeled recently. You can learn more on our website@elumynt.com, which is spelled Elumynt.com. That said, enough of that. Let's get into the good stuff. Tell me the backstory here. If I understand you had the highest single day on Shopify at one time, tell me about this backstory of where you come from that and doing what you're doing now today with AMB Interactive? Sure.

Josh Behr 3:10

So I was actually an accountant for 10 years of my life. And at one point in my career, I went to the client's office, and I said, Hey, it's kind of time for you to move on to, you know, a bigger accounting company. And he said, agreed, but what we really need is a comptroller. And at that time, I wasn't loving public accounting. He said, You know, why don't you just come join, you're going to learn a lot. And we were in the fashion space, specifically in street wear at the time. And one of the things that we learned about when he had a know how he learned that hoverboards, were on the rise, and he said, Why don't we just start a website and see what happens? So we ended up working, you know, weren't working with an agency at that time, because nobody understood e-commerce. We were on Shopify, and we ended up doing $38 million in a 10 week span on Black Friday. And remember, it was like yesterday, we did 1.1 million. We didn't know what to expect going into the weekend. And come Cyber Monday, we ended up doing $5.5 million in revenue, which at the time in 2015 was Shopify as highest day ever

William Harris 4:21

amazing. That is like something that you can kind of like just hang up there as like this achievement, right? You're like we broke the record.

Josh Behr 4:30

It was it was an amazing experience. You know, we were just pressing pedal to the metal it the funny part is it was all AdWords at the time. And it was on one campaign one search one. I forget the exact terminology, but it was literally built on one ad that just kept scaling through the roof.

William Harris 4:50

Yeah, and that's why AV testing is always worthwhile because you can have a lot of winners but you never know if you're just one one out away from that one. That is literally going to change the course of the trajectory of the business. So you transitioned from being an accountant to crushing Shopify sales, and eventually to launching and be interactive. Why? What made you say, You know what email is something that I feel like we need to dig into and do better. So

Josh Behr 5:22

what happened there was when right after hoverboards, got shut down, government came in. And we just looked at the landscape. And we knew e-commerce was an important thing. I went to the CEO, two days after the new year, and I said, Hey, I think I found what I loved, I really enjoyed being in the weeds with the agency that we were working with at the time and learning so much and continuing to grow. So we then started just launching a bunch of other websites. So we launched an LED light up sneaker company, we had an electric skateboard and bike company, we did GoPros, and drones and so many other products that we we just figured if we put up a website, we would do well, because we just figured it was that easy. We learned the lesson that it wasn't. But one of the things that happened was we purchased a brand called Jackthreads, I think we were the fourth owners of the brand. And one of the things that we were excited about was inheriting a 16 million person email list. And one of the things that we learned very quickly is every single problem you can have with trying to manage a 60 million person email list. So we had every deliverability problem under the sun, you know, everything that you could do wrong, we did it wrong, cross sell upsell, we were sending an email every single day. So we learned all the nuances. And you know, at that time, Andrew, the CEO of klavier, would actually come down to our office in Manhattan work through different strategies, you know, really diving into the weeds with us such a great experience why I've been working with clay vo since 2015. You know, they've been great partners, and you know, really like kind of putting that emphasis and work forward. So that's where like, I really started to learn and enjoy email, we ended up weeding that 16 million person customer list down to around 350 to 400,000 customers, for it to then only be a profitable endeavor that we were making money on and driving good deliverability open clicks. But that's when we learned everything about Google postmaster and everything else, which is really important now with all the new regulations coming out from Google, Yahoo, and others. Yeah,

William Harris 7:34

and that is the core topic that we want to talk about today, which was how to actually do personalization in email. And I think that there's going to be some interesting things we dig into, I do want to dig into some aspects of you know, why you weeded down that 16 million list and why that was one of the things that helped turn profitability. Well, let's go and talk about that part now. And then we'll get into the, to the rest of what we're going to talk about, but why, why was that one of the triggers for improving the profitability from email, like getting rid of millions of emails.

Josh Behr 8:08

So what happened was, you know, the user base was just built up over so many years, and then they had a sister company Thrillist that they were working with, that was growing the user base tremendously. But we what we were learning is that the people weren't actually engaging with emails, then as you go through, I guess, a fourth sale, you have a lot of upset customers, you know, the Jackthreads was shut down for a while left, a lot of people annoyed, couldn't return, they had a program where you could try before you buy, I think they were one of the first ones, if not the first company to actually have it, this is previous to us. And you know, I guess not overly successful that caused them to go out of business. And when we picked it up, which we weren't thinking of, we picked up a very angry email base. So every time we sent an email, it led to 1000s of tickets in customer service, and you try to win those people over as much as you can. But you know, they're just so angry, they don't care if you're the new Jackthreads they just know you as Jackthreads, which caused a lot of issues. So, you know, we started segmenting, and really like whittling down, like who's active engaged, actually, one of the things that we did back then, which I can't do now, is we use like jackthreads.co, to try and use as a separate IP to warm people up and, you know, not really, you know, maybe a little black hat tactics that I wouldn't do today, just with the rules changing so much, but something that we were trying to do to try and then migrate over people to jackthreads.com. So, you know, just the we had no choice but to whittle it down just based upon engagement and what we were seeing, because otherwise we were just carrying a very heavy email list paying a fortune to imagine you know, having 60 million contacts and trying to pay for all of those just wasn't Making Sense every time you sent an email, you lost money.

William Harris 10:02

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, what I think I've talked about before, how not every email address is created equal, right. And one of the things that I see a lot of people had done for a while too, is like there's the spin to win. And there's a lot of the exit prompts. And all of those are great ways to attract new email addresses. But if you're not continually cleaning up those email addresses, then you end up with just to your point, also, like a mass of people that you don't want to necessarily continue sending email after email after email to well,

Josh Behr 10:36

you know, the other thing that's happening today is, you know, everyone's very focused on improving their email and SMS capture rate, which is great, I don't not distract you. And I think it's important. But you know, I think everyone looks at it as a net positive, oh, I have a 15% opt in rate, I have a 10%, I have a 20% opt in rate, which is great. But the there's a cost that you have to carry by obtaining those emails. So you know, the goal has to be to convert those people. Otherwise, you're just having people on the list that it's actually costing you more money. So yes, it's a positive to get that person on the list. But you also have to look at the other end of it that there's a cost, yes, relatively cheap. But as you add that up over time, it, it can really start to hurt.

William Harris 11:21

So let's let's dive into the personalization of email marketing. So I know that's the core of what we wanted to talk about today. What are some of the biggest things that people need to think about when they're looking at starting to do better personalization that actually gets results? So,

Josh Behr 11:36

you know, it's actually relatively easy to implement personalization into emails, you know, just going starting at the basic level as people are viewing products. How do you insert that into subject lines? How do you show that actually into campaign blocks have recently viewed products? You know, having? You know, yes, abandonments are, you know, the one that one fundamentals everyone knows, but how do you go beyond that, and, you know, changing subject lines, but really like the next level is starting to update people's personal profile properties inside their accounts. So as people place an order, you have so much now information, low hanging fruit, that the second they place an order, you can insert a profile property saying, what size did they buy? What color did they buy? What, what size do they were? And as you get that information, how do you now use that to your advantage when you're sending out campaign? So you know, at the basic level, let's say I went and bought a sneaker, I wear a size 13. And if there was a new sneaker that comes out and says brand new in size 13. It feels more personal in that experience. And that way, you're able to just say, oh, okay, great, this sneakers in, they know who I am. They it's like it feels like it's more meant for you. And this is what I've even the need to change the actual creative and making. The other thing that we find that is really, really helpful, especially when people are trying to clear out of old inventory. So as we're talking about profitability, also cashflow. So how do you turn an inventory asset into a cashflow positive, because sitting on a dead asset doesn't really make much sense. So one of the things that we encourage brands to do is, you know, run a sale, but do it by size, there's no more frustrating experience, I go through it all the time, you go to a website, and now you start clicking like, oh, that shirt looks nice, oh, it's not my size, those shoes look like whatever it is, when it's not a one size fits all leads to a really bad experience in regard to, you know, that customer experience on the website. So one of the things that you can do is a shop by size email, where you you know, put all the sizes that you offer, when they click on that button, it's updating that profile property. So even if they haven't purchased, you're getting information on your potential customer, that then you're also leading them to a very filtered selection of what's available in the size that they have available. It sounds like common sense. But you'd be surprised how many people don't actually implement these basic things and basic rules that they would take on their own website or in their own viewing habits. So this is where like having those profile property updates. And then again, in sell in your size, in sale in your favorite color. You know, how do you learn more about their viewing habits, you know, another thing that we have seen success with is, as people are viewing a certain, let's say a brand, let's say you have multiple brands on multiple shirts or multiple colors, you can actually create web hooks inside the clay vo where you're capturing that data in real time understanding their viewing on the website. And then that can lead to when you're sending a campaign. Maybe you're not widening the audience to everybody, but you can I'd in the audience, the people that you know, are viewing certain products on your site in real time, or certain colors or how they're filtering. So there's so much that can happen that just like missed opportunities, but lead to much higher click through rates. And at the end, they much higher revenue per recipient, when they actually go through that experience, which at the end of the day is the most important thing, tailoring that experience to your consumer.

William Harris 15:27

So, you know, it reminds you the song, right from, what's the name of the song, cheers, whatever. It's like, we all want to go where everybody knows your name. And we do we want that kind of attention, where it's like, this is actually for me, and you sent me an email, you didn't send out your email list, you sent me an email. Um, I know, in the b2b side, there's a lot of platforms that do contact enrichment to fill out a lot of these other fields about people. Is that a thing? In the b2c side? Is there a way to enrich your contact list with pertinent information outside of just what they've done on your website? Sure. So

Josh Behr 16:04

you know, one of the tools that we like to use a spell bound where you can put quizzes inside the email, so they actually never leave the email experience where you can get them to go through like a quiz, why just stop buying? Or, you know, why did your subscription end? Did you have too much too little? Did you like the product, you know, I saw someone put on Twitter, you know, they have in their post purchase experience, give us a review, did you like the product one through four, and based upon what they choose, right, if it's a one, you can send them into customer service, get that loyalty back to the customer. And if they give you the highest rating, which was I think a four is what they put, you can start upselling them a different experience. So you know, there's so much enrichment that you can do, and not be overly complicated, not spend a ton of time spend a ton of money on tech, that, you know, a lot of these platforms have as a second nature, you know, Clay vo has less track hasn't suddenly and has it, there's so much out there that people can use to their advantage that is just sitting there. They just have to actually put the a little bit of time into it, but not overcomplicate things and still see a much more positive experience than that having today.

William Harris 17:20

Yes, if we don't want to overcomplicate it, right, because you can have 1000 data points about each customer. And that's your you're getting to the point where it's that's just not helpful. What are some of the other you know, you mentioned size being one, like what are some of the other really good contact properties that you should be filling out whether it's whether it's apparel, or not like maybe there's some apparel specific ones, but other areas to?

Josh Behr 17:42

So I think one of the easiest ones is doing a profile property update based upon what they're viewing on the website, whether it's at the collection level, or at the product level, and then just building out segments based upon what they're viewing and really like diving into the email based upon their viewing habits. So yes, they'll go into browse abandons, but as you're also sending campaign based emails, how do you tell that email experience more to them, and even if it's a subsection in the email, just as like a gentle reminder as a follow up, because you knew that they viewed it. And again, you can do a hide shell block. So it would only show to a specific group of people inside the campaign. It goes a long way in getting people to click and convert over.

William Harris 18:33

Yeah, so we had a brand called ma performance, and they sell like aftermarket car parts and things to kind of soup up your right a little bit, right. And we did similar things like this on the ad side as well. Where if you, if you have a Subaru, it doesn't make sense for me to show you parts for Ford that don't fit your car. And so it's like that idea of how do we make sure that we're showing you the parts that fit not just all Subarus, but your specific Subaru like, this actually fits the one that we know that you have. And so there were there were things we would do on the outside. And I imagine the same thing from the email perspective where you're like, look, I already know that this is the car you have not just this brand, but you have this specific car. And so these are the parts that actually fit the car you have, why don't we go a little bit more into sending you emails that are relevant to what you actually can do something about?

Josh Behr 19:24

Yeah, and you know, great color. And also one of the other things now with CLEVEO, you know, I No, I six months ago or a year ago, they launched an integration into AdWords directly where you can push the segments that are being built. And that's why it's important for you know, we always find it important for us as an agency to speak to, you know, paid social teams or paid search teams to understand, hey, what's working on your end, and it's a good back and forth conversation that generally lifts all tides and you know, everyone's worried about attribution but like, it takes so many touchpoints worry about increasing sales for the client, don't worry about the attribution at all come to fruition one way or another.

William Harris 20:05

Yep. And pushing those segments into Google, as well as meta is absolutely huge. We do that as well, all of the different segments that we're creating. And one of the benefits that I like about that on clay VO as well as other programs as well, but we use Klaviyo the most is that it's updated automatically, like in live time, basically, right? Where it's not like, hey, once a month, you've updated this list or something like that it's continually updating, which I think helps that lists they very fresh on the ad side. Why you told me before that also, when you're doing personalized emails, design is important. And design sometimes says to me that it's like, oh, the design is the aesthetic, but it's like, What do you mean by the design of the email is important. So one of the

Josh Behr 20:51

things why we think design is so important is so many people try to overcomplicate their emails, they feel like they need to put, you know, 20 different things into an email turns into this very long format, email. And sometimes just as basic, as you know, what is the main call to action? You know, one of the great things that I learned from working when I was working in house, I had to go to TJ Maxx and try to sell fidgets spinners in and I did successfully, and I got ripped apart on packaging, and so many other things. And one of the things that this woman taught me was, you have two seconds for someone to make a decision. And after that they are walking by moving on, it's the same thing with email, someone's got to make a decision above the fold in two seconds. So just a very, you know, clear call to action. You know, the hierarchy of the font is really important. Where Where do you want to draw the consumers eyes? What's the first thing they're going to see when they open that email is so important. That's your hook. You know, you have to have a very strong hook in what is someone going to read? And one of the biggest things that we're noticing now is almost like true direct response copywriting. What is that problem solution. So think about like the ShamWow, and those guys that are screaming on TV. But guess what, it still works, you know. So that's where we find that having that like, really simple design call to action, making like a clear formula for the consumer to follow goes a long way, it will help improve click through rates, they know exactly what you're asking them to do. And then they go do it and hopefully go make the purchase. Once you land them on the website. You know, don't sell the story in the whole story. In the email, you gotta want the consumer wanting more and draw the goal of the emails to drive the click, the goal of the website is to convert, and many people forget that they want to give the whole story in the email. Well, guess what? Now you just told the whole story, they're making a decision. Generally, what we see is the more often with land people on the site, the more likely they are to convert if you do it in the email. They're gone.

William Harris 23:09

Yeah, it's the same in advertising, too. Sometimes we try to convert too much in the in the ad, but it's like, the goal of the ad is to get you to the website, you need to create enough intrigue for you to say, Yep, this is for me. I want it I want to learn more. I'm interested. What's interesting, though, about what you're saying from the design perspective is it reminds me of I don't remember who did this the name of the guy here. I think we talked about it on Kurt Elster is episode here as well. But there was he created two websites. One was the user is drunk. And one was the user is by mom. And up for the user is drunk, he literally would just get drunk and then like review people's websites. And for the users, this mom is his actual Mom, I'm pretty sure that review the website and you can just picture just like I don't know what I'm looking at what's going on? Why is this over here? How do I click on this? And but the idea there is it's like this should be very simple. And the same is true for your email where I don't know why. But for some reason, we like to think this idea that it's like if I have 15 things in there, that I increase my odds that one of those 15 things is the thing that they want, and so that I'm going to be able to get this when if in reality, if you actually did a better job of segmenting people, like you were saying in this is personalized, and it's the one thing and you know that this is the thing that instead it's their size, it's their color, it's their cards, whatever, you're increasing that. I know we would do this in SAS to where we will limit the amount of number of choices you have for offerings to like, three, because we found if you have more than that your likelihood of making a decision is like I can't decide I need to do research. I'll come back later and you've lost sale.

Josh Behr 24:49

It's really unfortunate. You know, that's where you may not have the biggest segment of people when you're trying to personalize the experience for the user. But the revenue that you will get To read from such a small segment of people, at times, it may seem like more work, but generally those campaigns will actually lead to more revenue than just the more basic generic campaign. And that's what brands tend to forget, they're more worried about sending an email, how many people can we hit on the list? Are we using 80% of the list? 90% of the list? Why are we using all of it, you know, and what you have to explain to everyone is not every email is meant for every single consumer. And just because you think it's a good idea, doesn't mean the consumer wants to hear about it. And they tell you that it by the opens in the clicks, well, maybe not so much to openes anymore today with Apple MPP. But, you know, that click rate is really like the true driver of the consumer saying, Yes, you were effective, or you were not?

William Harris 25:47

Well, and let's say that, even if it didn't make quite as much revenue, in the short term, it creates better lifetime revenue. And the reason why and I think for make sure that everybody's thinking about this, in the right perspective, is that you can burn your list out pretty quickly if all you're sending are generic things. But if you're sending something to somebody that's definitely more personalized, that they enjoy, they're going to want to continue to open your emails in the future, because you're not just burning them out with generic stuff that they're not interested in. And so maybe that big giant one that you send out to 60 million people, maybe that does generate more initial revenue from a single email than segmenting everything out and filtering it down to 430,000. People that are active, maybe maybe more revenue on that day, but more revenue over the lifetime of the customer significantly, is going to wait towards the ones where the customer feels a better connection to the brand. So

Josh Behr 26:41

well, let me tell you something that everyone should be doing. So what they should be doing is going into their email platform, and exporting all the campaigns that they run, maybe in the last 365 days, maybe two years, depending on how much information you want to go through. And the two metrics that we always add on is how many, how many products are being viewed in that viewed product rate. And how many people are actually getting to the checkout process based upon the campaign's that we're sending. Because the mistake that people are making is they'll look at it open rate, they're looking at click rate, but they're also not taking into the account the amount of recipients that they're sending to. So if they send to too many people, you're probably going to hurt your click rate. So people are going to look at, oh, this email had a low click rate. And you know, revenue was okay. And, you know, comparison, but we don't want to run that again, because the click rate was low. But did that cause a lot of people to start viewing products and multiple products? Did that get people to start the checkout process? Did you get people lower into the funnel that are going to now allow your flow emails? Or is that people now leading people to running a Google search and then you have a good remarketing campaign there that's driving people back. So there's so many touch points that people are missing on that go just beyond open click and revenue? Yes, extremely important metrics to look at. But you have to look beyond that as well. And when you start doing the sorts, you know, at the top, you'll see a lot of, you know, Black Friday campaigns and Cyber Monday campaigns. But then that's when you start going through and you start finding all the goldmine of information, you're like, wow, I ran this campaign six months ago, but I've never ran anything like it. And this causes a lot of people to take action on the website. I should start doing that and test into that a little more to see if it causes a similar situation. Does that lead to increases in revenue? Go back and look at that day on Shopify. And see, did you have high sales that day, comparing it to maybe two days before and two days after? Did that lead to a lift? There's so many things that people can do that go beyond just opening click.

William Harris 28:52

I love it. That reminds me of something that you shared on Twitter recently as well. Another thing that people should be removing from their email list was Apple Mail privacy, protection, false opens, what are false opens and why why is this thing?

Josh Behr 29:12

So how iOS 14.5 came for paid? iOS 15 came for email. So what started happening is you started sending a campaign and it was automatically Apple, you know, ruined everyone's life. Everyone loves apple. Even though I still love Apple,

William Harris 29:30

I own a lot harder, but I love apple. I got the vision Pro. It's on its way I can't wait.

Josh Behr 29:35

Oh, yeah, tell me how it is. But anyway, yeah, I'm Team Apple all the way I use Mac. Okay. And, but I hate them because they made our lives harder. So what we saw what started happening is, you know, you started sending an email getting a quote, unquote, open, but no one was actually opening the email. If you started looking at profiles, you'd send an email at 12 and the open happened at 12. Well, one of the changes Someone's opening an email within seconds. At times, yes, it's gonna happen. But more often than not, it's not going to happen. So one of the things that we recommend our clients doing is, we start building out that Apple Mail privacy protection segment. And what we do is in the beginning is we actually started including it as a segment because they were able to see the actual data on how that group is performing. And we can use the data to our advantage to explain to the, to the client that hey, this actually isn't doing that, well, yes, you'll see 80% open rates, but you also see a point 1% click through rate, and it's actually hurting your deliverability at the end of the day. This is not to say not to never email them. You know, when there's a sale happening, a new arrivals, those are great opportunities to expand your list and send a relevant email. But you know, on a Tuesday afternoon, you're sending a campaign because everyone wants to just send an email because they think it makes money for the brand. Is that really the opportunity to send the people that aren't really truly opening your email? No, that's not the time to send those people.

William Harris 31:09

Yeah. So I think that's, that makes sense. That's a good one. And speaking then of clicks, and you were talking about as you were kind of alluding to this even just a little bit ago. And I want to run with this thought a little bit more, but it's looking beyond the opens and clicks. And this is something you were talking about on Twitter as well. But, you know, you talked about, like maybe the things that they're viewing but like what are the other things that we should be looking at beyond just opens and clicks? So

Josh Behr 31:36

yeah, so truly, they're also, you know, I went to going into Google Analytics, and I know, this pains people, especially with GA, for sure, but are people spending more time on site from the campaign's that you're sending? Like what's causing people to be very curious, and I know, a lot of people don't want to go into that much detail about the, you know, email campaign settings, but there's such low hanging fruit that, you know, you do a data analysis maybe once every 90 days, every six months to understand what's causing people to stay on the website longer bunch of get them that hooked in that likelihood to conversion is there. So there's so many things, you know, there's, there's that aspect of it. And also looking at boundaries, you know, did you get get the click, and then they immediately immediately left the website at the same time? Did you land the person on the right spot? So there's actual data that goes beyond just email opens, you know, viewed products? A great, you know, as I mentioned, and the carts, checkout abandonment, but time on sites? Another one? You know, are you putting them in the right spot that's leading to a conversion? Yeah,

William Harris 32:49

that's good. Yeah. Because the whole point is, if you're leading them to a point where they're bouncing fast to your point, you know, you've maybe lost them even more, you've done more damage, but the next time they send you send out an email, then they're gonna think twice before clicking their last time, wherever you took me, that was dumb. I have no interest in clicking on this, again, where maybe they would have if you had landed them somewhere that was more appropriate in the first

Josh Behr 33:09

but yeah, you know, listen, I can, you know, I feel like gamify the system and run really strong, you know, problem solution based emails. But if you don't put them in a place where it's going to fully help answer that question, whether it's in skincare or haircare, you know, there's so many different use cases for this. And you'd be surprised how many people just land and go, I don't get it. And they're out, which is a terrible experience. And then to your point, now you lost them. Yeah.

William Harris 33:40

Something else that you talked about, that I really appreciated was what we almost call like, let's say email, Bs. And let's say one of the ones that you talked about was anonymous user tracking. Is this BS? Yes,

Josh Behr 33:54

it absolutely drives me crazy. All of these tools that do the anonymous, so anonymous user tracking can work. It's to me, it's when you're starting to take the email addresses of people that didn't actually engage with your email and putting them into the system is going to start doing a lot of things. So number one, starting February 1, they you know, Google and Yahoo rolled out that if you spam complaint rates go above a point 3%, you're going to start affecting your deliverability. No, if you do it once, it's not going to hurt you. But when people start receiving emails from you, that didn't explicitly give you your email address, that's actually going to hurt you negatively, and actually affect your actual users. The other thing that we started split testing is we started getting emails from anonymous user trackers that we didn't actually sign up their email for. And because clients love these tools, they think it's the world's greatest thing. And what we started doing is running them through split tests. So what we would do is take 50% of the users and give them a pro Follow property tag have to receive emails, or the other one where they wouldn't receive we'd put the B section like didn't receive an email. And then we would wait two weeks and see how many people actually converted? Did they actually need those emails? Or were we just sending an email, and then you know, a lot of these anonymous user tracking tools have an exorbitant cost to them. And it costs you a fortune. Now, where we do see tools, you know, like a black CRO a blot out elevar. And there's others out there that I'm I think of being successful is when they're using your first party data. So in a cook, you know, with all these cookie tracking problems, one day from, you know, paid social and seven days otherwise, understanding who your user is that you actually know, people that have purchased, and then they're coming back on site, and you can now trigger emails based upon their viewing habits on the website that we have seen be very successful, and those types of tools that, you know, are working in compliance to make things better those tools we highly recommend for our clients.

William Harris 36:07

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. In once they've logged in, then you do have better data about who that person is over the longer period of time. Um, another one that you said is, you don't like it when people say, retention is the new acquisition.

Josh Behr 36:22

Absolutely not. email and SMS, and I am a full email and SMS agency, there's no paid anything. There is no way we are successful, without good strong traffic, constantly coming to the website, the whole goal of an email agency should be to get the person from purchase one to purchase to Yes, our goal is obviously to help close that first purchase. But so many agencies, you know, depending on the attribution tool that you're using, right, they send the first email of a welcome flow with the first email of an SMS. And, you know, you strip that information away from your marketing email agency, then tell me how good they actually are, how good are they then. And that's the nonsense that drives me crazy like it, I'm sorry, like, don't come to us. If you don't have a strong channel, you should use all that money in your paid search or you know, your paid social, that's where you should be putting your money because, you know, you can have the world's greatest email program. But if no one's there to receive the emails, what do you do?

William Harris 37:31

Yeah, so one of the things we were talking a little bit about, you know, spend away and and some of the other ways that you can capture emails, the best, the best email address that you can have in there is somebody who actually purchased right, like they've already qualified themselves for future purchases by purchasing the first place. And so I like that one segment that we like to look at with that then too, are people that purchase during Black Friday, Cyber Monday or during discounts, maybe being discounted a little bit in terms of like what we expect from future performance, as well, at least from an advertising perspective, because they're their entry into the brand was different, I don't expect them to behave the same way that I expect other people who paid full price for a particular item to behave when I send out an ad or an email or something like that to them. So a

Josh Behr 38:11

great thing to do there. Speaking of personalization, now you're getting, you're going to start getting into the weeds a little bit, you got to put some time in. So imagine someone buys for Mother's Day, like the low hanging fruit. And it's not even personal. This is not this level of personalization yet, but the low hanging fruit is set a follow up and 48 weeks later, so four weeks before you start reminding them to go, most likely, they bought a gift for somebody during that time, right low hanging one on one things. But if you really want to get more detailed, start setting, start exporting your Shopify information or whatever platform that you're using, and figure out who you're bill to and ship to is a different guess what those are all gift givers for the most part, especially if they're in different states. You know, it's not going to be 100% Perfect. But now you're talking about tailoring messaging, like here's a gift guide, right? There's so many different, unique use cases that you can do it that but that's going you know, that takes some decent amount of work to do. But some brands that have the time to do that it really makes sense. And, again, provides value that you know that they're a gift giver, even though they didn't explicitly tell you.

William Harris 39:20

Yeah, that's brilliant, especially if you haven't happened have a brand that is more gift giving ask if that makes sense, right? Where it's like, there are some things it's like, well, yeah, some people are giving gifts for that, but like there's certain brands that you know, these are often going to be given more as gifts.

Josh Behr 39:36

Correct. All right. Imagine like Venus the floor and all these flower brands, you know, so much information sitting there for them.

William Harris 39:44

One of the other email BS statements that you are talking about here was and I saw this on your Twitter as well. recency and frequency. But is an open really an open is what I put, I don't know that was the note that I had. But does that say anything to me like recency and frequency, but it's an open really an open.

Josh Behr 40:02

Yeah. So really how you know, everyone worries about how much they're emailing? Is it too much? Is it too little? I think you got to look at like the lifecycle and understand your product and how quick they're willing to buy your property selling a $1,300 product, it's going to take them much more, the consideration time is just much longer. So they're, you know, I would build out your welcome flow, maybe for 30 days, 60 days, something beyond the standard five day and be willing to engage, you got to provide value, but be willing to engage with that consumer, what value does your product provide at that price level? Where if you're selling a $30 product, to me, you have a day. So you know, you may want to send your first You're welcome flow, maybe three emails within 24 hours, because at that point, if your products 30 bucks, you may have lost them. Yeah. So you know, everyone's very concerned about recency and frequency, and you know, but sometimes you got to just be very aggressive with how often you're willing to email, which, you know, a lot of people think is contradictory, because you're gonna annoy the consumer. But at the end of the day, you're trying to get that conversion for the most part, I don't think you do. And especially if you have a very low ARV product, your first time acquisition costs, you're trying to cut that down to as low as humanly possible. How do you make that first order profitable? You got to you know, you got to put pedal to the metal on it. Yeah,

William Harris 41:34

it reminds me of something Michael Segal from deco created, he was on this podcast a few weeks back. One of the things that they do so they sell a home decorations that they send it out as like a box, right? So it's like, you know, one of those boxes that you get you receive, it's a subscription box. But he has a lot of content that goes into the after cell, where, okay, great. You receive these decorations, what do you do with them, right? And so then there's videos and stuff like that blog posts they put together to help you use the decorations they just sent you. And then they'll just continue on that nurture with you. So it's like, let's call it your welcome or your nurture, whatever after that, but where it's like, okay, maybe it was a Valentine's box. Well, what do you do with these decorations? Now? It's no longer Valentine's Day? Do you just throw them all away? Or whatever? It's like, how can you actually use these declarations in a different way to for you know, whatever's coming up now? So okay, let's say that it's, I've drawn a blank on right now, what's the what's the big holiday in March? We're just up with green. Why am I drawing a blank? Thank you. So let's say that it's St. Patrick's Day. And you're like, Okay, great. I've got these decorations that I just got, how do I reuse these decorations for St. Patrick's Day. And so they put together content on how to reuse the stuff that they've sent you. In times past, I think that's a beautiful way to continue, let's just say your, your welcome series or nurture series to make more value out of what you've already sent them. You know,

Josh Behr 42:57

you brought up a great point, one of the most overlooked things is a great post purchase experience, especially if you're a single use product. And when you're like a single use product, it's really important to make sure people are using your product as much as humanly possible. So, you know, are you giving recipes? You know, if it's a cleaning product, I guess I would, you know, if it's, you know, decorations, you know, to your point, how do you get people to like use that product, because one of the things that will happen from there is true Word of Mouth now, that attribution will never come back to email and being direct or however it comes. But you know, getting people to use your product immediately how to use it, how to ask questions. It's amazing. Like they feel a part of the community. The other thing that you know, a lot of people are seeing success with is a Facebook community where you know, people get to share their content, or if they're making something or how to use it or different recipes for cooking, just depending on what you're selling. All these things go along. If you have a journal, how do you journal? How do you use it? How do you make sure that someone's actually using your product, so that when it comes time to get the next one, they've been using it, and they're very excited to continue on?

William Harris 44:14

Yep, I love that. So what are some examples of or at least an example of somebody that you know whether this is a brand that you've worked with, or whatever, and maybe you can name them and maybe you can't, and that's fine. If you if the example is more important than the brand name, that's fine, too, but have email personalization done just exceptionally well that you say this is a gold standard or something that happened that you're like, This was great. I love it.

Josh Behr 44:41

So I can share the something that we worked on. I'm not allowed to share. But we're at a point where if you go to a website, and you view it's in fashion, if you view a product, and I'd say they're similar To like maybe a Macy's or Nordstrom is where they have, you know, 1000s of different products. We're at a point where if you view product X, when not, we're going to show you brands that are very similar to them that you should be that you should look at. And that you'll know. But we're also starting to introduce brand new brands that are appearing coming in that category that are similar to what you already viewed that you may not have heard of, but they're starting to trend and pop and get you ahead of the game, where you know, certain brands do fall off. It's just like anything else in fashion. So how do you build that personalized experience, and you know, having working with a good dev team definitely helps, you know, push events back into clay vo that allow that personalization to happen. And then as your viewing habits change on the website, your personalization changes. So if you go from, let's call it streetwear, to high fashion, your experience in what you're viewing in your email is going to change because of those things. And then, you know, if you're in the Northeast, and it's cold, guess what? You shouldn't see cold weather stuff where if you're in the south in the heatwave, guess what, you probably not looking at a jacket. And we need to show you more things timely that way. So that level of personalization really helps. And you see the difference in revenue per recipient, by over 1,000x. It's it's absolutely insane. Now, it's hard to get those people to through that personal experience. Again, people come to the website, not everyone gets to the level that we need. But again, how do you do more quizzes, learn more about them goes a long way. I

William Harris 46:45

think that's a beautiful example and a beautiful metric that you called out to revenue per recipient. Is that something that you think everybody should be tracking when they're talking about email. So we

Josh Behr 46:57

think in flows in campaigns, it's especially in flows, it's really important to look at, because there's certain things that we can't control. Again, we can't control how many people actually going to trigger that metric on the website, again, very important to work with a very good paid team. Again, we're not acquisition we are retention, trying to retain people and get them to purchase. And, you know, how do you improve that revenue per recipient? It may sound like a little how do you go, you know, and I'm going to use a random, random number, if you go from 10 cents to 12 cents in revenue per recipient, it doesn't sound like a lot. But when you start increasing the amount of volume that's actually going through that flow. It's like an annuity that continues to pay dividends over the course of the year. And it you know, everyone, you gotta look at the key metrics. So the things that we're looking to improve on and flows is, how do you improve click rate? And how do you improve that revenue per recipient? You know, people ask us like, Well, how do you improve the revenue? Well, some more people, and you know, one plus one will eventually equal to, but our goal is to always look for small, incremental ways at times big, but the more that we can improve that the better the brand will be, the more money they can spend top of funnel and grow their top line revenue.

William Harris 48:16

I love it. What about the flip side instead of a success? Are there any examples of email personalization gone horribly wrong, that you're like, please don't do this. This is an embarrassment. I don't ever want to catch you doing this.

Josh Behr 48:32

You know, I'd say that there's the biggest thing is that we see people go wrong with is actually not testing emails, you'd be surprised how many people do not test it. And the personalization doesn't actually work. And that's probably like, the biggest thing. I don't, you know, I would say, you know, the biggest thing that I think most people go wrong with in personalization, is they get too far into the weeds of it. And they get actually nothing accomplished, where they're looking at too many different things. And they're not looking at the greater good. So the go through all of these different, you know, getting development people involved, and it turns into 100 people, which could be good or bad, depending on your ao V or anything else. But when you have a list size of 400,000. Yeah. Did did all that work make sense? or were there other things like again, improving your abandon flows or your post purchase flow that can increase your revenue per recipient in a much bigger way than just you know, everyone loves to do buzz things? It's actually making sure that the juice, it's like the good old 8020 rule. And you know, it's always 80% of the sales and 20% of the products most of the time we're seeing it's in 10%.

William Harris 49:47

Sure, yep. Um, you talked about some of this on on the personalization stuff here too. So I want to ask you, have you ever heard of an email company called clay.com? They're more b2b. So it's not in the same space, but have you have you heard of them and what they're doing? I have not. So this is interesting. I'm wondering if there is a b2c equivalent that maybe Livio or somebody is doing. But they're allowing you to use chat GPT to write the introductory sentence for each one. And so on a b2b side, it makes a lot of sense, right? Like you're sending out an email to somebody, and you're like, great, I want them to say something personal about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Maybe we don't want to get to that level. But it's like, is there anything that that you know, of in the b2c world that is allowing that to happen automatically? And if so, is this a good thing or a bad thing, because I can see that going very horribly wrong, too, because you're not getting the proof, check that every single person you're sending it out to.

Josh Behr 50:47

So we're actually in the midst of testing this right now, in real time on a client where we are taking, you know, over 100,000 profiles. And when we send the campaign out, it could be done to 100,000 unique individuals, right now, it's in plain text, beta. It's not. It's not designed yet at the moment. But again, we're actually seeing a really good lift in again, revenue per recipient of 40%, when we're running this type of analysis, understanding that if you're, again, there's a lot of it's based upon viewing habits. But you know, being able to run that in real time is absolutely insane. And yes, some of it is done through chat GBT. And it is happening in a really real way. I'm not allowed to mention who it is yet. I was sworn to secrecy, but it's coming really soon. I'm really excited about it, the you know, these two guys are crazy, they're doing crazy things, it's going to be really good for brands, if, you know, obviously, you got to pay attention to what you're doing. And it's not the end all be all, it's not going to replace design campaigns. And eventually there'll be a design element to it. But imagine understanding, you know, here's a perfect use case of how we're using it, and it's on a skincare brand. So if we know you purchase product A so let's say it's a face wash, and then but you bought that, but you also looked at shampoo, conditioner and something else. How do we drive that experience to remind you of the things that you looked at, and that in your next campaign in your post purchase experience, and because everyone has unique viewing habits on what they're taking, and trying to run that for anybody in house agency in real time, it's impossible, you're never going to get it right. But if you can use tools to your advantage that can understand your data in seconds and spit it back out. It's not seconds, it takes about two to three hours to run. But that's nothing, you're talking about a day's worth of work here. And with seeing 40% lifts on those types of campaigns in a revenue per recipient model versus others, and using the same group and designs and in this personalized personalized experience. That's

William Harris 53:15

brilliant. You're talking about like shampoo, conditioner, body wash, it reminded me of what AI would probably tell me is the night and one right where it's like, you can also wash your car and your dog with it too. And just throw it all in together. 100% needed. Yeah, exactly. So I want to get into the personal side of who is Josh Behr as well. One of the things that I always like to talk about some is like childhood, and what led to that. But you said there's actually maybe something better as far as like, why are you a successful entrepreneur? And you talked about perhaps it's because of the misery of the Jets? Why is that helps you make become a better entrepreneur.

Josh Behr 53:57

So I think one of the most important things as a lifelong jet fan. My father my uncle started as season ticket holder was back in 1990. I started going to games. I'm now a season ticket holder, my uncle moved to Florida. And now this past year, I wrote my poor five year old son into the New York Jets misery. And he's already asking me, how can they always lose? It's hard to explain and should tell them to get used to it really quickly. But one of the things that it teaches us that not everything that you think is going to be great like using the Jets. We thought we had iron Rounders, we thought we had the solution. until four plays into the season when I was standing there in the stadium and I never heard the stadium so silent in my life when this man went down. Everyone's just looking at each other wondering what just happened. And then when the news came out during the game, everyone was just that absolutely devastated with what happened. So one of the things in you know, entrepreneurship and running a businesses Not everything that we do is going to be perfect. We're gonna have losses. with clients, not every great idea that we have is going to work even if we have the best intentions in mind. So similar to the Jets similar to any sports franchise, right, there's a lot of free agency think you're hiring the right employee or the hiring the right, wide receiver or whatever it is. And sometimes it just doesn't work out. Look at the Mets, they spent over $300 million on their payroll, and again, another subpar season. I'm also a lifelong med fan. So I just love to losing, you know, can't can't help it. You know, and, you know, Steve Cohen had all the right intentions. But you know, and that's happened with staff, you know, we had the right intentions. So all the right interview questions, and sometimes a staff member doesn't work out, you know, have a line that we now at AMB limb by is, in the words of coach, Rob Sal of the New York Jets, all gasp, no brakes, we try to go as fast as possible. Because at the end of the day, we think speed wins. You know, and where that place that I was working with the hoverboards. The other one was a days a week, a week is a month and the month is a year, though you gotta move quickly move fast, the climate is changing, the economy is constantly changing by the second. So you know, you have to be able to move with it.

William Harris 56:23

I think there's a lot of truth to that just in the idea that if there's one thing that's guaranteed in your business, it's that you will make a mistake, not just a mistake, you will make many mistakes, right? That's true in life. That's true in marriage. That's true in parenting. That's true and everything thing that's absolutely guarantees, you're gonna make mistakes. And so there's an element of the success comes from in all of those situations, the resiliency to continue to get back up and keep going forward with that, knowing that the mistakes were inevitable, as long as you continue to, you know, get back up and keep playing the game. That's when you succeed, but you give up, then, then you can't if you quit the business, if you quit your marriage, if you quit being a good father or whatever, it's like those, that's that's when you actually lose. But if you get back up and you keep moving forward, you can move forward past mistakes. Yeah, listen,

Josh Behr 57:16

my my son five is a wrestler. So he just started wrestling, and you know, he has won matches last matches, and he just keeps getting himself back up. And even at that young of an age, something I don't push for, he just wants to do it himself, he practices and wants to get better. And that's how you have to do it.

William Harris 57:37

There's a quote that we have on our website from Coach Woody Hayes, OSU football coach, and I think still the winningest football coach in OSU history that I really appreciate. And I'm from Ohio. So So that's where that comes in. Which I like to win. So how about that. But the thing that he says that I really appreciate? It was, if I remember correctly, the story goes where he ended up poaching an opposing team member in the chest, and I don't remember who it was. And there, you know, in the conference afterwards, like you think you went too far with this, and clearly he did. But the quote that he said, was something along the lines of, I would rather get to the end of my career, having gone too far than to get there and say I could have done more. And I think if we have that mentality, that mindset in business, whatever that is, it's like you're going to make mistakes. Don't worry about the mistakes are going to make just go just go like do it. That's better than leaving something on the table and wondering, what if? What if I would have what if I want to try?

Josh Behr 58:37

Again? Yeah, by the way, side note on Ohio, we went this past summer to Ohio because we went to the Hall of Fame because when we get back in and I have to say Maryann donuts was the best doughnut I have ever had in mind. We still talk about it to this day. How good it was.

William Harris 58:57

Okay, you don't understand what kind of rabbit hole you just opened up. I'm from Canton, Ohio, of all places. So the profit while you're talking Marion donuts, I'm like, Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. And in my opinion, you got to get the maple cream stick there. You don't have cream sticks very much around where I'm at. And I'm like, no, no, they call them a long giant and then it's I remember biting into a long john and there was no filling in there. I was like, This is what is this kind of sick joke that they're playing here. But as the maple cream, say, Mary andonis Did you try HeyGuys candy the while you were there.

Josh Behr 59:28

I did not here about Peggy's candy, what happened? We went to the parade in the morning. And everybody's showing up with Mary and doughnuts. And I was with my father, a friend of mine and my son. And we're like, why is everyone I'm married. So we started asking and by the way, the nicest people nicest town ever. Every time a flag came by everyone standing up to salute it, you know is probably one of the most unbelievable things from someone that grew up going to the Thanksgiving Day Parade every single year talking about it. difference in what I've seen. And it was just unbelievable. So we started talking to everyone, it's like you got, you gotta go, you have to get married and doughnuts Don't leave without getting it. So the next morning, we were leaving, and we got in the car, we drove to Marion donuts. And we left. By the way, there was a fantastic ice cream shop that we found. I wish I remembered the name of it. Maybe Taggarts. Maybe they had this banana split ice cream that was out of this world and a bunch of other things. So yeah, we really enjoyed our time there.

William Harris 1:00:35

That's good. Okay, so on the flip side of this, then, you talked about, so we've got all of our sweets and treats. How do you deal with the stress of this job, you talked about your treadmill.

Josh Behr 1:00:49

So the biggest thing that is the most helpful thing is having a treadmill, so I bought a standing desk, and I started walking, you know, every single day, in between calls and talking to the team. And it just helps alleviate the stress of what you're going through. You know, and it's easy to get through, you know, 15,000 20,000 steps in a day, when sometimes you're just stuck, and you just, you know, you forget to go outside and you know, you forget, you know, to go for a walk and do all these other wonderful things. You know, at least this is something to keep you active and going while generally normally this is a sit at your desk, type of job all day long. And honestly, my whole career with accounting. Yeah, yeah.

William Harris 1:01:38

Josh, it's been absolutely amazing having you on here, if there was one last piece of advice or topic that you would give to people in our space, EDC space, doesn't have to be on topic, it could be completely off topic about life too. But what's the last piece of advice you would want to share?

Josh Behr 1:01:54

I think the best piece of advice I can give to any single brand that we're working with, is ensure that you are actually qualifying the people that you are working with. So one of the biggest pet peeves of mine, when I worked in house, and I worked with agencies is day one, you'd meet someone like us, they sound really smart, really intelligent, and day 45 You're speaking to someone that you know, 10 times more than and there's nothing more frustrating of an experience than that. So, you know, ensure that you're you get to talk to the people that you're gonna work with, ask them questions that, you know, yes, maybe the sales team or the CEO is able to answer in a breeze because they've been doing it for a long time. But that doesn't mean that the company that you're the person that you're going to work with actually understands any of it or they you know, what's their knowledge base. So, you know, one of the things that, you know, we try to work on is in, you know, ensuring I don't expect anyone on the team to go through the knowledge that I went through as a life that, you know, it's hard to replicate. But how do we work with all of our clients, I, I actually am in the weeds, I touch every single client that we have, it really helps. And the second and last part is, go get yourself a good paid, either in house or paid agency. It's probably to me the most important thing. In my lifetime that when I worked in house, we we spent money on when I didn't want to continue to run it. And I have a focus on other things. It's so important. It's so valuable, and someone that is giving you as much knowledge as possible. There's no secrets in marketing. Yeah. You know, we try to share everything with our clients, because we feel the more they know, the faster we can run. So we think that, you know, having that transparency with clients and with the agencies is, especially on the paid end is really important.

William Harris 1:03:54

Right there with, you know, secret sauce, like share it all, like, let's just get better, more intelligent as a team. Josh, this has been absolutely fantastic. If people want to work with you, or they want to connect with you follow you what's the best way for them to do that?

Josh Behr 1:04:10

They can visit our website at ambinteractive.com on Twitter, JBehr919. And on LinkedIn, I have no idea you can just search my name Josh Behr, I'm sure I'll pop up. I'll be the guy with the bald head. And I give out as much information as I can on LinkedIn and Twitter. It's no nonsense. There's no fluff in it. It's really straight to the point. And hopefully you can find something that's going to make you better at what you're doing.

William Harris 1:04:38

Yep, totally agree. Worthwhile follow there. I've watched a lot of the videos that you have there. So it's good stuff. Josh, thank you again for coming out sharing your knowledge sharing your wisdom, your time with us. I really appreciate it.

Josh Behr 1:04:50

Thank you so much for having me.

William Harris 1:04:51

Thank you everyone for joining in today. Have a great rest of your day.

Outro 1:04:57

Thanks for listening to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.

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