Katharine McKee is the Founder of Morphology Consulting, a digital commerce consultancy relying on algorithmic structure to optimize company strategies, increasing profitability and growth. As a Fortune 500 e-commerce strategist, startup advisor, and digital commerce expert, Katharine specializes in data and analytics. She has spent 15 years building digital commerce capabilities for leading CPG and luxury brands. Katharine has contributed her thoughts on e-commerce and retail-related topics to Forbes, Business Insider, and Authority Magazine. In 2022, she was recognized in Forbes Next 1000 and ranked #30 among the Top 100 Retail Technology Influencers by Retail Technology Innovation Hub.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

• Katharine McKee shares how her passion for e-commerce led to Morphology Consulting  
• Broken patterns across the industry — and how to use marketing tools effectively
• Taking ownership of business aspects you can control
• Valuable processes brands often overlook
• Why you shouldn’t compare yourself to your competition
• Katharine explains why e-commerce brands should focus on information versus product images
• Prioritizing tasks that generate the most impact
• How does Katharine gain confidence?
• Practical tips for finding serenity when you’re overstimulated
• Katharine imparts advice to elevate your brand’s quality

In this episode…

The evolution of marketing has made brand promotion easily accessible and convenient for company use. However, in some instances, quick marketing strategies can be a detriment to your business. Which strategies work against your marketing goals, and which are worth pursuing?

It’s easy to opt for quick marketing solutions, such as paying for ads on other platforms. In the short-term, these efforts seem like the best option. The caveat to these solutions are that you spend valuable marketing dollars trying to convince an audience to purchase your product. Katharine McKee, an e-commerce expert and startup advisor, has mentored brands on furthering their influence by focusing on manageable business aspects. She recommends removing large images from your website, targeting your intended audience, and considering your marketing efforts from the consumer’s perspective.

On this episode of the Up Arrow Podcast, William Harris welcomes Katharine McKee, Founder of Morphology Consulting, to discuss how businesses can improve their marketing efforts. Katharine shares inefficient marketing processes to avoid and provides valuable methods with proven success. She also explains why information is more valuable than product images.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

• William Harris on LinkedIn
• Elumynt
• Katharine McKee on LinkedIn | TikTok | Twitter
• Morphology Consulting
• Moonwalking with Einstein: The Art and Science of Remembering Everything by Joshua Foer

Sponsor for this episode...

This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is a performance driven e-commerce marketing agency focused on finding the best opportunities for you to grow and scale your business.

Our paid search, social, and programmatic services have proven to increase traffic and ROAS, allowing you to make more money efficiently.

To learn more, visit www.elumynt.com

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:03

Welcome to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris, featuring top business leaders sharing strategies and resources to get to the next level. Now, let's get started with the show.

William Harris  0:15  

Hey everybody, it's William Harris here. I'm the founder and CEO of Elumynt. And the host of this podcast where I feature experts in the D2C industry sharing strategies on how to scale your business and achieve your goals. The guests that I have with me today is Katharine McKee. Although I found out just a couple of minutes ago, she also goes by Katie that's what she has done here because we didn't have enough characters for everything in that line. Katharine McKee founded Morphology Consulting a digital commerce consultancy that creates long term profitable growth for their clients by helping them understand and adhere to algorithmic systems online. After a 15 year career building out digital commerce capability for companies and pillars such as CPG luxury, beauty and apparel. She's a Forbes next 1000 honoree and 15 year veteran in digital commerce. Katharine is a leader in e-commerce and an expert on systems who focuses on building clean processes and organizations. To date Katharine has overhauled the digital go to market for more than 50 brands, including fortune five hundreds such as Cody Luxottica and IPG media brands, and has sustainably increased clients revenue up to 600%. Year over year. Katharine excited to have you here.

Katharine McKee  1:27  

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

William Harris  1:29  

Yeah. And I was thinking about you. Okay, so I think we originally connected through a LinkedIn group that Alex Greenfield, over, founder of no best practices both invited us to right. Yeah, she's great. She is great. There's a lot of smart e-commerce people in there thankful to be part of that.

Katharine McKee  1:48  

Same same,

William Harris  1:49

it's a good group. It is. Before we get into the good stuff here, I do want to make sure that I call out that this episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is an award winning advertising agency optimizing e-commerce campaigns around profit. In fact, we've helped 13 of our customers get acquired with the largest one selling for nearly 800 million. And we were ranked as the 12th fastest growing agency in the world by Adweek. That said, None of the boring stuff onto the good stuff. Katharine, why did you found Morphology Consulting? What's the backstory there?

Katharine McKee  2:21

Yeah, good question. My background was always in E commerce. So I guess thank God that took off. Thanks for the but I was ahead of e-comm at a bunch of different shops. And I kept running into the same problems and single brands, 40 brands and a group whatever it was, it was the same problem over and over and over again. And I kept kind of finding as I would switch categories, or switch companies that we were just starting at point zero again. And as I switched companies, I was switching categories. And what was happening is that I wouldn't sort of go back and do like, like consulting projects, with previous clients or previous jobs, I should employers, I guess, I should say, and it just sort of was a lot more appealing to me, then playing kind of the corporate game, I think there's an element in large companies have you shift away from being a doer at a certain point, like different corporate levels have different skill sets in them. And mine is not being politically savvy. Consulting seemed like a good fit. Like, I will keep making you money fixing the broken stuff. And you guys can all go to dinner together.

William Harris  3:19  

Just do it in one fell swoop. You know, what, what is it about this, though, that you're passionate about? Why where's the passion come from?

Katharine McKee  3:28  

That's a good question. I think partially, the autism I'm autistic and order. And I guess really order is super important to me. And I'm the style I have is sort of like fractal pattern matching, which means that the more that I run across bad websites that have sort of consistent bad programs, the like, the crazier, I personally get, like none of this needs to be happening. And I think when you're in a space to the flip side of it is that people's businesses are an emotional minefield for them. And there's a lot of discomfort and stress and emotional maybe dysregulation in the space. And a lot of it doesn't need to be there. So the way that we've always focused on it is setting up fundamentals to be aligned to the system that you're in. And I find that people aren't aligned to the system that they're trying to use. And that creates this like very tense adversarial relationship, and it doesn't need to be there. And like, I personally like to know the correct answer to things. And I always want to kind of share with other people that if, if you don't know that three plus four is seven, and you think it's nine, and it keeps ruining your life because it's not actually nine. Wouldn't it be helpful if someone was like, Hey, man, it's seven,

William Harris  4:34  

which is yeah, sorry. I saw one of the things that I like about this is because I love math. What you said fractals. I don't know if you saw my eyes get big. I was like, Ooh, yes. Let's get into that. We won't go too deep into that for everybody else to say, but just the idea of systems kind of being frustrating when they're not doing well. And even like you said, I liked the idea where you're like, from client to client, the client, the client, it's it's the same thing. Oftentimes, it's like it's the same problem. Holmes, this is very tangential, but it's just a I'm ADHD, so not on the autism, but you'll see that perfect THD style, my going to check into a game for my daughter, and I will say that for volleyball game. And speaking of systems that just are broken, you go to check in and I don't know if you've been this when I was when I was young, we'd go to a game. And you would actually just check in, you know, you'd pay with cash, and that was fine. And I'm not doing a cash person, just so we're clear on that. I definitely, you know, very digital, I'm involved in crypto and NFTs. But now it's like you get there. And they're like, Oh, you have to download this app, like, we don't actually take it, you have to download this app. So you download the app, you wait for that, then they're like, Okay, well, then you gotta log in and get your team, then once you get your team, then you can pay for the ticket, then you have to wait for it to like, send you an email confirmation of it. And then you can go into the game. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, we've taken something that should be so simple. We've made it so complex. And there's just a breakdown in process. And I can see where those breakdown and processes can be very frustrating. And so I guess my question to you is, as you go through this, and you see that there are certain patterns from business to business, what are those broken processes or patterns that you're seeing across businesses that just irritate you?

Katharine McKee  6:08  

Yeah, very good question. I think the also maddening I mean, he's an app for everything where you're like, can I just swipe my ticket is mind blowing, like guys stop doing that. I think the thing that I run into with a lot of brands is a mindset problem. Like I think this is what it is like just sort of foundationally if you are used to being in a low trust environment, and you are presented with a high trust tool, if that is not going to mesh very well. So I find a lot of brands spend all of their time or most of their time trying to find like a hack or a trick or like a way to get around it. And they're constantly like, the door says push on it, just push it like that's actually the fastest way to do it, like pulling, it's not going to work smashing, it's not going to work, you know, like getting people around you calling someone like you could just push it. And I really think that's where people get stuck. Because there's a lot of talked about around like different tactics, or different ideas or different sort of ways to, like beat the machine. And I from the bottom of my heart, you are not smarter than the machine. And it's very weird to want to fight it like the machines existence. And this is the mindset part, the machines existence, is to make it easier, like Google is not out to get you, Amazon's not out to get you Facebook, not none of these things are out to get you. Yeah, they're difficult to use when you don't follow the directions. But like that's it, that's an internal locus of control, right? Like, they're not out to get you. But it might, it's really maddening. I've done this myself a million times, trying to pull up in a push door and like, let me tell you, it's embarrassing, it's frustrating, it's emotionally bad for me, but like the door doesn't care, the door has no skin in the game of me getting inside. And so we're taking the control back and sort of being like, I can manage this, this is up to me to figure it out, I think is really the foundational thing that we do with all of our customers, which is like, don't be mad at it, because it doesn't care about you. So that's not gonna be productive. The second part is like, could we made a mistake somewhere? Is there a way to do this more efficiently, correctly within the system? And 100% of the time? Yes, that's what the problem is.

William Harris  8:11  

I appreciate that you called out that, you know, Google's not against you. And I think sometimes, you know, we do feel like it's easy to pick on Google or Facebook or Tik Tok and say that, you know, this ads are against us, and they're trying to work against us. But the reality is, they want you to be successful, because that's what makes you spend more money with them. And so like they absolutely are aligned with you on that now you can feel like there's a misalignment because their goal is to get you to spend money without seeing a return. And I know that's how people could feel. And there are times where that might be what happens. And some of the recommendations that come through are absolutely wild. And you're like, yeah, no, don't do that. That's not good for your business. But their ultimate goal is for the ads platform to align with your business goals. And then we're seeing this push more and more, which is a really good thing. What are some examples that you've found where people feel like maybe Google is working against them, when in reality, we just need to maybe shift how we're thinking about things?

Katharine McKee  9:08

Yeah, fair. And I actually want to pause there, which is that Google's goal is not to get you to spend more money. And that is where people get crazy. And Google's goal is not selling you ads. It never was. It's a data company. It's that type of thing, where people are like, I only use it for ads. So my, my perception of this is that the ads part is what matters. It's not. And Google didn't start with selling ads. Google is a data platform built to help people customers. So like not the brands but customers get the right answer. They added ads because brands refused to go to market cleanly. And people were like, Hey, can I pay to jump ahead of the line? Instead of building a website, that index as well that you the search engine can read and you're like, Oh, yes, this is an ad agency that has won this many words and Elumynt is the one that you want. Instead of doing that brands were like, can I just pay you money instead? So if you ask For grifting can't be mad that you're paying it. But also Google doesn't care, right? Like Google is not doing any of this to you. And so when they make recommendations, most of them are things that are like, Well, if you've chosen to go this route, the next step would be buying more ads, you have clearly decided you're not going to fix your website. That is the correct answer. But it's not my job to tell you that it's your job to know that I think Amazon is in a similar place to which is, both Google and Amazon are not your partner in anything, they're a tool, all of them assume that you are the business owner and that you are good at business. If you have chosen to make a website that is five JPEGs in a folder and not an indexable entity, you must have had a reason. Sure. It's not Google's job to tell you that. So if you're like, hey, Google, now I want to buy my traffic. I want to give you money for ads. You you picked that. And they think there's a like this fundamental. You know, like, you can't be mad at a hammer, if you didn't use it to hammer things. The hammer doesn't have any stake in this game. And the hardware store assumed that you had a purpose for it, what that purpose is, was your decision. So no one's kind of stopping you in the middle. And I guess, I guess I'm not being like, Hey, guys, that's not how it works. So yeah, you can buy infinity ads, you can do conquesting, which is insane. You can buy all the keywords in the world, you can bid crazy amounts of money, they're not going to stop you. Because you have autonomy, you are welcome to do it's not a good idea. But like you're welcome to do it. And I think where we get stuck is that when we've created a relationship that's like that, and that's not a healthy one, we then recognize it's not a healthy relationship. But like you, you sort of need to see your partner as well, which is that that wouldn't be happening. Had you made other changes earlier or made, you know, changes later. But the point is not that Google is out here trying to like scam you for extra and dollars, it's that they're a high trust entity, they are giving you all this information, assuming that you're going to do good stuff with it. Yeah, if you don't, or if you perceive that as if you do anything with it, or if you perceive it as unfair or you weren't used to a low trust environment where we're both adversarial and we both get the game that we're playing. And we both are sort of like, retails like this, where everyone's sort of like squabbling with each other. If you approach a high trust environment with a low trust mentality, it's just gonna move away from you. So like, you can, you can conquest all you want. That's insane. Like, it's weird to have cat fishing the your like marketing campaign, but like, live your life aren't gonna stop you do what you got to do if you're Google. And they think when we talk to brands, and I say things like this, the brands are sort of like, wait, what? Wouldn't Google have stopped us? And you're like, why you're a grown adult? You asked for this thing. If you're allergic to fish and you buy sushi? Like, I that seems like a bad idea. But it's not the restaurants fault, you know?

William Harris  12:49  

Yeah. So you can kind of, you know, almost like take care of it in one fell swoop. And I think the idea behind that would be what about, you talked about control here in this. It's a you have the control of this. And there's a lot of things I know that you and I have talked about where it's like, what are the things that you have control over? So what are some of the things that we have control over that we act like we don't have control over but as brands and as merchants that we should be taking control?

Katharine McKee  13:12  

Yeah, fair, I think the big one is traffic, I think the one where people feel like they have to buy traffic is what's hurting them, you don't 2% of clicks go to ads 2%. So 98% of clicks is going to organic, that's 100% within your control. And part of the control are things where you know, they're stopgaps along the way that like, it's very easy to build a beautiful website that doesn't index it's incredibly easy. And a lot of the information that you're given currently in the space is how to make a beautiful website and none of them index. And I think that's an easy one, you know, like, check the sizes of your images, or they would slowing your load time down like site speeds an easy thing to fix. Having backlinks as a strategy instead of authority as a strategy. Backlinks are a proxy for information. They're like you telling McCobb that, you know, I have a driver's license, instead of me having the driver's license, you can also just put the information on the website, so that Google or whoever people can read it. Like I think we talked a little bit about the grandma test I make the clients do which is that part of building your website is that if your grandmother, can you remember use it, she can get it, she can know where she is and what she's doing and be able to check out quickly. And for most beautiful websites, the answer is no. And you're like if your grandma can't do it, the search engine can't either. But thankfully, all of that's within your control. All of those are things that you can readjust to give good information and have a user experience that's clear and have a site that loads quickly and has a high authority score. Like all of that is maybe simple. Not easy is the way to put it.

William Harris  14:43  

Sure. Well, okay. Yeah. Simple and easy. It reminds me of like complex versus complicated. It's a really good debate between like the two of those, right, like, a lot of times we interchange them but they mean very different things. And it's the idea of and we see this on the outside too. Where don't make, don't make your customers job harder than it needs to be. And if you were to translate this into, let's say, a retail location, it's the idea of going out there and intentionally not putting a sign up on the outside of your door, not putting a street sign out there, locking the front door. So they have to come in the back door, right. And just like, you've literally just made it as complicated as possible to try to get customers into your door. Whereas if you actually just do these basic things that have been established, as you know, what needs to be done these processes, then it's going to work and to your point where it's like, hey, actually speaks you your feet is clean, I can't tell you how many times we come into a feed that is absolute garbage. And you're like, if you actually just have your feet clean, oh, your pixel is not tracking, it's triple tracking, it's whatever. Okay, these things are simple things that can be fixed, that make a massive difference in let's just say your customers ability to find your store and find what's relevant, as well as Google or Facebook's, or tiktoks, or whomever, whatever other ad platform, you're looking at their ability to understand what's going on on this page as well,

Katharine McKee  16:05

for sure. And I think probably a third part because we work with a lot of agencies and I brands will bring us in a lot to audit agencies that the brands don't trust. And it like keeps circling back to that like, I've maybe in my entire career found like two agencies that were actively doing bad things. The rest of the time was like, I don't know, you had an agency buy you a bunch of ads for a product that's not in stock. For a region where you don't ship your product for a website that will not load a website that has 19 popups on it, like the ads didn't work. That is correct. But it's not that they aren't crazy ads. It's not that they the strategy is bad. It's that the environment, you drove people to stinks, and that's not the agency's job. That's your job.

William Harris  16:47  

Yeah, and, you know, I won't let agencies off the hook on that. And I appreciate that you're kind of out that, I will say that I think that to a point that is some of the agencies job, they should be aware of what what they're doing what they're advertising, if you have, if you're advertising products that are out of stock, as an agency, You better catch that and fix that, make sure that you're not doing it. I appreciate that you did say that it was you know, not necessarily out of, you know, some kind of like, sabotage the brand, it was maybe just like a carelessness, or whatever. And I actually, I think you'll appreciate this because we have a section on our homepage that says we promise to make mistakes. That sounds really wild to say that in what I say, though, as I said, but seriously, hear us out. If we make zero mistakes, then we probably aren't moving fast enough where we aren't making big enough changes. If your goal is to grow fast, mistakes are inevitable. And then I go on, as any agency that says otherwise is either lying to you, or too incompetent to realize even made the mistake in the first place that I go out into the office, our goal is to reduce mistakes as much as possible. But the idea behind this here it was through processes. And so there's a lot that we do from that perspective. And but the idea behind this is exactly kind of what you were saying where if you are making the types of mistakes where you advertising products that are out of stock, you just have a bad process problem. That's, that's a mistake that should be avoided. But if you are making a mistake, because of let's just say you're testing something that's completely untried, and you have no clue if this is going to do better or not, and there's no research out there about this at all. There are going to be mistakes that are made for that that's a good mistake, because you're saying we're testing we're validating, we're trying new things we're pioneering those are okay, mistakes, though, for things that are breaking breakdowns of process those are those are inexcusable, you should be able to work towards figuring out how to make sure that your your feed is clean, et cetera.

Katharine McKee  18:31

Agreed wholeheartedly agreed. I will say though, that I mean, the point of a test is to see if it's a yes, no, that's not a mistake. If it's a no, like write checking it to check it like it's it's data, which yes, I mean, obviously, you should be clear at the brand and they should understand that like some things work, some things won't. But like, I do think that's different from we didn't read the brief and we put something crazy up and it sucks, like, okay, right, there's probably like a check and balance we skipped here.

William Harris  18:56  

What are the other top three, let's say two or three processes that you see that brands are just failing to do well that you're like, please, please look at this and fix this.

Katharine McKee  19:08  

I mean, the first one really is the site. The first one is sites that are beautiful disasters like their I see a lot of really stunning websites that are only images and it's the biggest one it impacts everything. It is a huge underpinning of our work but there are a lot of things where like those images are enormous or you put up like movement files which are enormous and they take forever to load and human eyes don't like them there's a lot of I think, I think that ties into this the idea that you have to like strike while the iron is hot and like jump on the cool thing and so I see a lot of brands really sort of like shiny shiny thing that when you're like shiny object and also like did you stop and think about this? Like, did you need lasers for your like toothpaste company? Do you think they want that? Do you think Mother's Day is the right time to send like tire irons like shabby like thought through like what this is? So I would say it's sort of two pronged one is having a website that does not adhere to any algorithmic structure, that's a really big one, which is like you can't put any size image up. You shouldn't start your navigation with the word shop, unless you sell shops, which you probably don't. But like, that's not directional. What do you do? Like, tell me what you do and put information. And the other part that I think is sort of intended to that is like, Do you know what your customers want. And I'm going to tell you, a lot of brands do not a lot of brands are smart people who had a cool idea. And a lot of times in D2C, like they were patient, zero, they had a problem. And so they innovated this cool thing, and they solve the problem. And that is wonderful. That is not to knock any of that. It's that you are probably not indicative of your entire customer market. And almost always, you aren't your actual market. Like it's all do your thing. But like the actual market use of this is like over here. And I find that brands get really dug in D2C brands mostly get really dug in on like, but I'm cool. So like my, my selling point is that I'm cool. And you're like, it's not first of all, no one has ever Googled, I'm cool, so you're never gonna get any traffic. Second is when they get there. Me or My grandmother? Why would I want this? Yeah. Why would like why would I care and it's never beautiful imagery that has never sold anyone on anything. Literally, you need to tell me the specs of the car. So I know if it's a good idea. You need to tell me if the shampoo is for curly hair or not. Because if you don't, and you're like, Hey, look at this beautiful packaging, like psych Tory man, that looks cool. But I'm not gonna buy it. Anything. I think brands really get stuck there on like, well, what's the next hacky attention seeking thumb scroll stopping thing I can do. And you're like, that's not what the problem is. The problem is that your website's unusable and that you're talking to yourself. So like, yes, you and your brand director think it looks awesome. And you don't care that it takes 37 seconds to load. But your customers do?

William Harris  21:50  

Yeah, yeah, they do. I mean, we're impatient. And I think that we're hopefully on the same page on this. Hopefully, it'll open up a big can of worms. But site speed is one of those interesting things I've seen where there are some people who don't care at all about their site speed, and you're like, This is a horribly loading page. And others who care way too much where you know, they're chasing this, you know, end percent change, that is just this miniscule change that the cost no longer rewards that. And I'll often see, especially in the e-commerce side, where there are brands who will say, well, we don't we're not loading as fast as you know, XYZ site, and that's a static HTML website, you can put up a static HTML website for an e-commerce brand, but you're not going to convert customers that way either. There is an element of a lot of let's just say very unique dynamic stuff. And that takes some time to load and it's a little bit more understood and so making sure that people compare themselves from a site speed perspective to other relevant similar things within their category or their niche and so you know, just because you get a site speed that scores an F on you know, some site page let's just say you know, Google's site page speak or whatever, doesn't necessarily mean that you're bad compare that to with everybody else in your niche. Are you are you within the range of what's good in that particular area? Okay, fine. If you're not, then that's where you need to start digging in. Would you agree with that?

Katharine McKee  23:16  

No, no, I need to find out. I do agree with you that there are diminishing returns I do agree with you that trying to get like teeny teeny teeny increments is a giant waste of time. If you're getting an F on something you just blew off 75% of your traffic which sure probably not the direction you want to go and revenue wise and I will save it cuz I m team never compare stop looking at your competition. They're not smarter than you and you're all making the same terrible decision, which truthfully, maybe don't stop doing that excessive keeps me in business, but I spend a lot of time being like, yeah, it doesn't matter what the person the brand you aspirationally want to be like did like your jewelry brand. But you think David Yurman is cool. David Yeomans website is not good. But David Yurman is a legacy brand. Their website doesn't need to be good. People are buying this bracelets anywhere they can, their website does not matter. What happens particularly I think in D2C is again, like shiny object, you are layering your Shopify site, which is already gonna load incredibly slowly, with a million different apps that you absolutely do not need. You shouldn't have any popups you shouldn't have any banners, you shouldn't have any of those ticker tape things on the top, you don't need a chatbot unless you're like a doctor, you don't need any of these things. And I think people get stuck being like, well, but my cohort did it and you're like, Yeah, send me their numbers because I'm gonna have them pay me money to to fix these, like, none. None of that is good for your site. So I would say very firmly stay away from any kind of comparison with people in your cohort because sticking to benchmarking and sticking to competitive set will keep you mediocre, it will keep you terrible. The whole idea that like every single customer hated this, we got an F on our site speed, which sucks that everyone else sucks together like being tied for last is not the score you want.

William Harris  24:55  

Yeah, that's fair. Maybe I you said F I should have said like let's say b minus Something along those lines, maybe I went a bit drastic, just the idea that it's like, well, you know, in order sometimes I've seen in situations where the only way to significantly improve the site speed from where you're at now is get rid of everything that's dynamic on your website and turn it into a static website. And it's like, look, that's bad for e-commerce from from, from a certain perspective where it's like, you know, it's an e-commerce brand, you actually do need to show some kind of dynamic stuff where it's like, you know, some products absolutely are better in like a 360 view where you're like, I kind of need to see like, you know, a few different things, there are some some moments where like, that does help people move along. But I do agree with what you're saying a lot of this is overkill, and an F is being maybe wrong score.

Katharine McKee  25:39  

Fair, I would argue hands b minus two, but I will say that I, I appreciate what you're saying. And I think some of it is in deployment. So people who were like, Yeah, my product should be in a 360 Spin, okay, but not on the homepage. And the homepage is what setting your is what setting your site speed score, if you made that way smaller, and you drag it all the way down to the size it's supposed to be and you put it on a PDP, it wouldn't impact your site score, or would nominally impact your site score. So I think there's an element of like, are we using the right tools in the right place. And also, there were like three products on earth that really needed 360s. So like, you're like spinning the pill bottle, like come on.

William Harris  26:17

There's a lot of novelty being used for AI and AR and you know, all types of things that you're like this, this, you know, I didn't need to see that shirt and augmented reality didn't change that shirt at all. Whereas you know, Wayfair, that you're trying to AR to be able to see, like, you know, you know, this couch in my office to see whether or not do I like the way that's actually really nice, because I don't want to ship that couch here, unless it's the you know, fit. And I like that. So there are there are novel uses to it that are just inappropriate. And then there are some sufficient excuse it to,

Katharine McKee  26:50

yeah, agreed, agree. Well, anything you know, like, to your point, like, use the one that's good for you don't use all of them.

William Harris  26:55

Yeah. What about an example of a, let's say, a site that you feel has done a really great job, this could be site speed, it doesn't have to be site speed, but you're just saying, I feel like this brand has done a great job of nailing down these core processes that are in your control.

Katharine McKee  27:13  

And he asked me that I don't have a good one. And when I work with clients, I tend to like mock them. For them, I will tell you that a perfect site is probably not what a brand is going to be excited about. So like, no images, sure. images don't actually do anything. And I know that all the real brand people are getting real worked up. They don't do anything. Right, yeah, people are gonna freak out. But every time I've tested it, I've been like, you could take all of this down, and it will not impact people buying things now not zero images ever. If you have a product, like if you sell jewelry, you are going to need to like show a picture of it at some point. Sure. But your website should not be a kajillion images, most websites should really be on like the Amazon function. And I mean, the old Amazon function, write it out, write it out and tell me what it is. Because when people are shopping, what they want is information. And brands are like Oh, but I can I can make a beautiful version of showing you the thing that you need. And you're like, I don't know what that white lace shirt on a white background theme, about example, is gonna look like on me, I don't know how long it is, I don't know how it fit. I also can't tell you the shirt. And the background starts like most imagery without context is not helpful at all. Context is the entire journey. And images are like a nice icing. Sometimes, obviously, brands are probably like screaming at this point. So like, of course, you can keep your images and there's a happy medium. Yeah, that'd be meeting just isn't perfect, like closer to perfect is more data. So you want to err on the side of did we really, really, really explain this? And then I'll add in some pictures, because I can tell you from going through Amazon data that Amazon is like, Yeah, put up 40 pictures go for it. People don't look at them. All the dwell time is in reading the descriptions, all of the dwell time is in ratings and reviews and question and answer. Nobody looked at your third image, much less your 10th image, much less the sizzle video you put up. And I think that is a very difficult thing to hear from a branding perspective, because it matters so much in store, like seeing and like sensor, really tactile experience of the product. And obviously you want your branding to feel good. And usually beauty or cool or like a visual environment is important to a lot of brands. And that's true. You just need to remember that it's important to your brands. And like what's important to customers is information.

William Harris  29:24  

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's the key, right? It's like, how do you align what you're doing as a brand around what your customers want, not what you want, because that's who you're selling to.

Katharine McKee  29:37  

Right? And you know, still keeping your brand equity in place because not every product is meant for every person and so you don't want to you don't want to go to common denominator like like the chat GPT conversation I always find interesting because it's generative from the median of the mean. So it's already the most mediocre thing it could ever be and like that's unless it's one or that's not how your customers are going to be segmented. So you don't want it to be the most average possible thing. You do want it to be specific to your customer. We just need to make sure that we're keeping the customer in mind while we're doing that.

William Harris  30:13  

Yeah, so anti Chat GPT I did I catch that. You didn't really? Yes, strongly. Yeah, I see your point, though, I would say that it is it is very vanilla and a lot of its responses and answers. It is it has to be exactly it can't take a strong stance. Whereas I think that's one thing that is unique to the human experience is we are allowed to have absolutely polarizing and wrong views about things. And that's part of what allows us to be able to say that stuff within you know, your PDP and it's like, you can say that this is absolutely the best, most amazing, whatever glorious thing that some of the stuff that liquid death says, for instance, you know, I'm familiar with the liquid death brand water, like Chat GPT is likely not going to write that most of the time, I haven't tried to write anything in that format. But I can't imagine that it would come out with something that strong, it's gonna be a watered down version of it pun intended, actually,

Katharine McKee  31:04

is good fun. Solid delivery. Yeah, I mean, Chat GPT, generative, generative, anything is useful for like bureaucracy, like, write me a standard form, wonderful, just save you a bunch of hours. And like, 1000s of dollars, that's great. So I'm not against the idea of it, I'm against the notion that like, you're gonna create art with it, and you're not sure that you're gonna like write, copy, you're gonna speak well, to a customer, you're literally not. And the reason is that you couldn't possibly be and part of it is how bad most websites are. Because that's what it's learning from. So as it's like scraping your website that has one word on it, that's like pow, but it's like a soda company. Like, no, it doesn't have access to good soda copy to give you, again, the median version of whatever it would be. So one is like the intake is bad. But two is that it is written to be an average of averages. So yeah, it's not ever going to be great. It's not ever going to speak to your individual thing might speed it up a little bit, might you be able to get, you know, I see a lot of people will be like, well, you can get like top 10 lists, you can get like BuzzFeed style stuff. And like, Yeah, sure. If that's a use case for you, awesome. Please don't put that on your website, like, you know,

William Harris  32:14

unless that's your brand, if they'd already is your brand shirt, right. But if that's not your brand, maybe you're pushing it, I don't know, I can still here's the thing coming from the ad side. So this is where we maybe have a little bit of that like dueling forces that I appreciate. What what converts sometimes is the absolute most atrocious, ugly thing that you've ever experienced. It has that immediate, that immediate connection to purchases, that doesn't necessarily mean that builds up the brand. And that's right, I'd say that there is a duality that needs to be played there as far as like what builds the brand equity versus what gets results right now and there is a difference but from from a strictly like what's going to get the results right now sometimes it is the ugliest thing. I want to say there was a I forget who did it. But they basically made a banner ad a long time ago where it was just a hand drawn thing that they drew up like, you know, made it look like a banner I drew a button on and whatever it was like not even even designed anything but because it stood out so much from every other banner ad that people were seeing it had the effect that it needed to have. Yeah,

Katharine McKee  33:21  

wholeheartedly with you there wholeheartedly with you there. I think that is true. And that is fair. I will also say though, that thing doing things like that opens a can of worms, where every brand is now like we should do a hand drawn ad and you're like No, the it's not like it wasn't like a secret trick. Like yeah, they did it and it was surprising surprise is the tracks are like authenticity is the trick but like no, you don't need to all do UGC, like it

William Harris  33:45  

is not the new form of advertising needs to take place it was because it stood out. That's the reason why it worked. And soon as everybody does it, and to your point, that's why a lot of these hex just don't work for very long time and but usually by the time you've heard about it, it's been written about or something like that on, you know, entrepreneur or something. It's it's past its prime, and you need to move on from that and start focusing on going back to again, have the basics, run some of those tests, those hacks, it's fine, but have the basics done first, if you run into hacks, but you haven't even done the basics, maybe start there build the foundation.

Katharine McKee  34:18

Yeah, and hacks hacks are a Ponzi scheme. hacks are like an MLM. If you were the first one and good for you, if you or anybody after, like the third one doing it. Right, it's not gonna go anywhere. And that's going to be frustrating, right like that. I think circles back to the beginning of like, it's emotionally draining. And it's hard, like you are working so hard. And I think sometimes, like when you talk about like, we'll just do it right. That's exhausting to someone who's like I have done all 600 of the things I was supposed to do and it didn't move any needles for me and I'm getting yelled at by my boss and like I'm my personal money is in this company and like it's not going anywhere and like I have no way now to separate like wheat from chaff. If everybody said they did this thing Then like that's the right answer, right? And like that is fundamentally wrong. And that's fundamentally what is like driving people into the ground and like, hit that point with that amount of stress like you don't you don't have the distance to be able to be like, Oh, no, this one isn't good for me. And like, I think it's, it's tough, like a lot of my messaging is really like brands need to do better. But also recognizing that like, brands are under a ton of pressure already. And like, that's not, it's not a great environment in which to firmly take a stand and calmly take three steps back and like, turn off all your media for a minute until you figure out what you should be doing. Like, oh, that's terrifying sounding. And I completely understand that I've been a big companies, I fully get what it's like.

William Harris  35:36

And that's where somebody like you comes in and says, okay, yeah, there are these 6000 things that you need to do. But I am a pattern recognizer. And so I can tell you, these are the six that you need to start with versus is kind of like what you're doing, you're helping them to navigate the 6000 things that everybody else is saying you're saying, but from a pattern recognition standpoint, start here.

Katharine McKee  35:56  

Yeah, from like a prioritization, right, like fixing your site speed is going to triple your traffic, changing the color of your banner may or may not do anything. It's not that it's bad. It's that there are things that will give you real gains, and will really help you and they're things that won't. And I think, you know, like with anything in life, where like, we'll change the banner code takes 15 seconds, like, compressing all the extra Java on our site will take three weeks. Sure, I want to do the one today and you're like, I hear you barking, it's just not going to work. And you're going to be even more stressed out. Right, right. So like, take a step back.

William Harris  36:27

We do focus so much on the immediate things. What can I do today, that we seem to have a lack of the ability to be patient and say, but this one is going to take three weeks, but this is the one that's gonna be impact. This is something that you seem passionate about, just in general. And I love this, right? Like, it's, there's not like a gray answer here. You're like, no, is this or is this it's like, moving on? Why? What, what makes you tick? Why are you able to be so? sure of where you're going with your answers? Like, what is it about that? Something that like from your childhood or something like a mentor? You know, what?

Katharine McKee  37:07

Yeah, yeah, fair question. I mean, the real answer is that ism, I It's like the how the brain works. I think outside of that, though, and especially from the past, I came up in a corporate environment, and I came up in the, you know, the early aughts, where like being nice, and like playing the game was really important. And I had one boss early on, who when I was being like, very kind in a board meeting was like I pay you have an opinion, like, tell me what the correct answer is. And it really shifted the way I approach things into being like if I do objectively know the correct answer, because some things are objective, some things are subjective. And it's hard to take the firmer stance and subjectivity because you know, different strokes for different folks. But objectively, and most of my work is objective, like there is a correct answer. Doesn't make any sense to pussyfoot around the math being wrong. If it's wrong, it's wrong. That doesn't make you stupid. It just means the math is wrong. But I really credit that particular boss at that time for being more forthright in the information he was seeking.

William Harris  38:03

Yeah, well, and I liked that you said like, if the math is wrong, it's wrong. It's one of my favorite things about math. And that's why I have such a high affinity towards math as well, because math literally just says that, like, this is what it means there is Yeah, it doesn't matter. You know, you can look at it a million other ways. You can say that it's from a different perspective, or whatever. But you're simply saying, but it's like, but here's the thing, three plus four equals seven. And that's there's a comfort in knowing that there's like this stability in how math works. And it's taken us let's say, you know, millennia to get to the point where we've established a lot of the rules of mastery that but and there's still some things that upset us. I will say on that topic, very tangential. I remember the first time learning that 4.9 repeating equals five, it's not approaching five, it's not the limit of five, it is the same thing as saying five, it is identical. It is 100% equal and you're like, let doesn't feel right, it feels very not intuitive. And I can remember, the first time I found that, like just spending probably a couple months trying to disprove something that's been proven. I think, like three, there are three different proofs that prove this now. Right. So it's like this is we're very sure of this in the Math Community. But it feels so much against what I would like to think.

Katharine McKee  39:22

Yeah, but I think that's amazing. Also, I really enjoyed it. I don't know if we said this on this or not. But I find like musicians have a high affinity for math. And I love that that's like a brain connector thing, which is rad. But I took theoretical calculus in college, which sounds much harder than it is. And I remember it, the professor just being like, the numbers don't matter. Like we made them up. They're just squiggles. So like, I need you to be able to understand like what addition means and watching people, people were crying like this is this is a rocky class. And when it finally sinks in, and you're just like, oh, like A plus B equals A plus B, and, like the the numbers are signifiers that we all agreed upon, but like, technically, it's just As we all agreed upon them kind of thing. So like, are we biggering? Are we smoldering? Are we doing that at scale? Are we doing it not at scale, which I find really, really interesting. And you're right, it's really like, soothing. It's, it's very relaxing. But like, you know, there's only arguments being made that like, you can only use data because you can make terrible decisions with data, which is true, like, you do need to have context to it. But there is an element of like, but you gotta do the math first. You can't just be making it up, like check them out first. And then using that math, use your context or your background or whatever, or your goals, because maybe your goals aren't more traffic, maybe there aren't more sales, which is possible. Yep. And kind of applying it that way. But yeah, the math is very

William Harris  40:37  

well, it make better data, make better decisions with data, you know, I think about it's like, okay, how can we do this in one fell swoop. And one of the ways that we could do that is, rather than looking at such granular data points, sometimes it's like, you have to step back. And I see this with brands all the time, where they're like, Oh, well, you know, we had we were up this week down this, pick up this and I think I'm going the wrong direction here for you here, we'll go, you know, this way. Now, it's like, oh, this week down this week, up this week down. Okay, wait, but pull back in a little bit of a larger window. And what you really were up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, and you're actually approaching higher than where you were, if you look at it, you know, eight weeks from now. So it might feel like you're just going up and down and up and down and up and down. And you're not making any momentum, but you are when you pull back and you see that over, have over a broader window. And I think that's something that people miss oftentimes with the data where they're looking so closely at this and it reminds me of the gorilla video. Do you ever remember the this video that was really popular for a while where they're passing basketballs back and forth? And they say, okay, count how many times the basketball is passed between the team wearing the white shirts and you watch it you count? And you're like, 15, I got it, right? And they say, you know, they say the answer. And they're like iOS 15. You're like, Yeah, I'm so smart. And then they're like, Did you see the grill and you're like, look at Rella there was a gorilla that walks right through the middle of the video. While you're doing this, and you're watching this, you like literally don't see the gorilla at all. But I think that we do that with data. And that's to your point where it's like, you know, you got to do the math. You can make bad decisions on data, but you actually got to be able to kind of look at this a little bit more holistically as well.

Katharine McKee  42:10

Yeah. Oh, my God, I love that. I have not seen that video. But that is a phenomenal story. And you're right, you get so hyper focused on this one thing that you miss, like the forest for the trees, and you're like, Yeah, I mean, that stinks. And I will say that, like, I have this conversation with too many brands, where I'll be like, yeah, you just need to do X. And then why. Sure, which are simple and not easy, which is fair, when the response 100% of the time is a version of like, if it were that easy, I would have already done it. And you're like, Wow, you didn't and it is so sure. Let's try that one. Because I mean, again, you're you're running a company, like you're incredibly busy with a billion different things. So the fact that you checked the wrong box does not need to be like an emotional failure. Sure, like Alright, now let's take the right one.

William Harris  42:53

Yeah, don't continue making bad decisions just because you made one bet. And I'll say that we all get into this habit where you're just like, well, I missed my work on a Monday. So this week's done, I'm just going to start over next week, you know, Tuesday through Sunday, though, too. Don't give up on the entire workout just because you missed the one workout and but we do that? Well, well, that didn't work out the way I took the wrong box or whatever. So I'm just gonna continue taking more of the wrong boxes. And so how about we just undo that and tick the right box? I like the way that you were. Yeah. Yeah. What about throughout all of this, one of the things I know you and I talked about was finding serenity. So when you can see patterns, the way that you see patterns, it can be difficult to turn your brain off a little bit as well and find that calmness. Well, what are some tips and tricks that you have implemented for finding serenity?

Katharine McKee  43:42

Serenity, I think probably the first one. Well, the actual first one is that I moved out of a major city. So that's not necessarily possible for everybody. But sure, being overstimulated all the time, was not great for the brain. So moving out on major city, and I think Ben tangential to that. I go for like walks every morning in the garden. And it's just a very, like hard physical reset to the central nervous system. And that, truthfully is one of those things that sort of sounds like made up until you do it. And it it really is the most like calming, relaxing, centering, grounding thing, like five minutes or an hour. Like it's just a very

William Harris  44:16

do do a barefoot like truly grounding.

Katharine McKee  44:19

Sometimes. So I'm in apartment complex, so it's gravel, which is not the most pleasant thing in the spring. It's hot coals. Yeah, we're gonna do this for real. So sometimes they're like little grassy knolls. And I'll do it on but I find that like, dig my hands all the way into like, the dirt of the garden beds and that it's like a it's an immediate, very, like fundamental shift like it it is very much impacting like, your heart rate and your pupil dilation and like the way that you're absorbing like wavelengths of light, which I find fascinating. Fascinating.

William Harris  44:49  

So I I'm with you, 100%. I think that a lot of those things that we think are science fiction, or let's say, you know, hippie dippie or what however we want to call it right, I think that there's actually a lot more science that we just haven't caught up to, into your point, the wavelengths of light from from the sky, the wavelengths of light from plants that we have, let's just say, for 1000s of years we have we have been surrounded by that we have, I would even say that they are they're emitting sounds that we may not necessarily immediately perceive. But those those sound waves ourselves may be perceiving some of the things that those things are saying, right, and even getting down to the idea of, of light and sound. All of those have an effect on our bodies that we don't recognize. And I think that science will eventually catch up to that. And there is something to that. So I'm writing on that.

Katharine McKee  45:38

I think science has a little bit like, you know, the like the long running joke and like Victorian ladies being hysterical and being like, sent to the sea. And then the sound of ocean and salt in the air and seeing the color blue, particularly like undulating Blue has a very profound effect on your central nervous system. So I think I think we probably like reflexively do things that are good for us. And you're right, like, maybe we think it's silly, maybe it sounds like a little hippie ish, or, you know, like, foolish, it really is a very big impact. And truthfully, I think, you know, like, you kind of do you, like, if your day is better, and everyone collectively does that, then collectively, the society is going to be better. And I think, like, you're welcome to make fun of me for walking around barefoot and like, you have some articles, even, you know, like, making me better, right? Like, I think we sort of missed that in the like, The in group thinks we're dumb, like, Okay, sure.

William Harris  46:29  

Well, and again, you know, because if I'm 100%, with you, even let's just say taking ice baths for a long time is like, Oh, that's not necessarily a thing. And now we actually know that there's a cold shock protein that gets released that goes through and repair so many things within your body. And it's like, eventually, I do think that we will come to have a better scientific understanding of how all of these different things, walking barefoot in your garden, will get definitive scientific research that says, yeah, here's why we actually get it. And it's a wonderful thing for you. And you should have been doing what your grandma told you to do. Back to the grandma,

Katharine McKee  47:01  

like God, the grandma rules that's so good. Also a cold plunge man, those are so so so good. But you have to get your vagus nerve under. I feel like a lot of that people dip to like their chest and they're like huffing and they look miserable. And you're like, it doesn't hurt if you get the back of your neck in. Which is such a like funny hack. Like it doesn't hurt. You don't feel weird. You don't feel too cold. You don't shiver it doesn't I mean, probably shorter a little bit it. The vagus nerve is like the thing, you're supposed to be making cold. And that's in the back of your neck. So like if you're gonna do a cold plunge, you gotta get like chin deep.

William Harris  47:31  

Sure. squalane. Right. Yeah. What about any quirks or hobbies, one of the things you were talking to me it was getting getting deep into your mind palace. And that's something that I appreciate as well. Tell me a little bit about like your mind palace.

Katharine McKee  47:46

I think the idea of creating, like, in order for me an orderly universe in my head isn't really relaxing. And also, I've never tried to, like verbalize this before. It's really relaxing practice. But it's also like, where all the secrets are. Like, you know, if you can, like shut for me, if I can shut out kind of like sounds like things that are around me and like, go into my brain. Like, that's where I keep all the math. That's where I keep all the stored information. That's where I keep all of like, the extra data. And I think that it's, you know, like you create your own. So like having this like, calm, quiet, clean environment for me, where I can like, see where the numbers are going, or where the patterns are going is the easiest. And again, like most relaxing way to do it. And I would imagine, I mean, you said you love them too. So I'm super curious. Yours is like,

William Harris  48:33

well, so I got into it because of there's a book called Moonwalking with Einstein. And it's absolutely a fun book. Any any goes into the author, and I'm drawing a blank on his name for right now. But it goes into just even setting this up for memory competitions where you know, I've memorized Pieta 59 digits, on my way to work one time, but just sheer rote, right? And it's just okay, I heard it and it was like, great, got it. But when you want to go to like 80,000 digits, which some people have done, like if you had a massive amounts of digits, the only way you could do that is with a mind palace. And so we talked about how it's like you set up like an A, a person, an action and an object. And so it's like, you do that for each double digit. And then you set up these approaches. And so I had done this for a while, but you can set up then so you could put like this weird person, action in object around the different parts of your house, you come in, you walk in through the door of your of your mind palace, you say, Great, I'm putting this one here. And I'm putting this one here, because they're so crazy. It becomes much easier to recall, but you can now end up with so maybe going a little fast, you can end up with six digits. So let's say you have a person in action and an object for let's say one, one. And maybe I say that this is Moonwalking with Einstein. So it's like you're like Einstein, moonwalking on wood or something, right? So it's like, Okay, I've got my person, my action and my object. And then let's say for two, two, let's say that this is Katharine McKee. I'm singing into a microphone, right? And so it's like, okay, that's two, two. And then let's say 433. It's just for fun. It's, you know, William dancing. William dancing on. I don't know, on a on the sun, juggling it, you've got to, well, you can combine all six of those into one image then where you can say, Okay, if it's 112233, then it would be Einstein. So it's the first part. So it's Einstein to two. So it would be the verb from yours. So and what was our verb for you? That was singing so, So Einstein singing, and then three, three was minor, the object was the sun, so it's icing on the sun. So then you can put that now. So it's like, oh, that's an interesting thing. And I walk in and I go to my left here, and I put Einstein singing on the sun right there. And I can recognize it's, oh, it's Einstein one one singing is two, two, and son is three, three, so I know that it's 112233. So I've got six digits in this one little thing. Now you go around the rest of your palace and you you put these things here, and you can memorize very, very massive amounts of numbers.

Katharine McKee  51:03  

That's read. I'd actually never heard it described that way. It's a really

William Harris  51:06

cool thing. Yeah. So anyway, so when you talked about your mind palace was like, Ooh, this is fun. And I think we should talk about this. More. Yeah. Oh

Katharine McKee  51:14  

my god. That's amazing. What's the book Moonwalking with Einstein Moonwalking

William Harris  51:16  

with Einstein. Now, coming up towards the end of this, I also like asking people about any you know, silly human tricks or something like that. Is there any kind of like a silly human trick that you do that you're like, oh, most people don't do this, or most people can't do this.

Katharine McKee  51:34  

I don't I don't know if it's most I will say that I whistle with my throat, not my lips. And that tends to like throw people like

William Harris  51:40

It's like Tuvan throat singing like, What do you mean?

Katharine McKee  51:43  

I don't know what that is. So maybe it like it's like here. But you don't I don't like it's like yeah,

William Harris  51:56  

that's yeah, I mean, you're not even like your lips aren't first, right? It's not like, like, yeah, so you're that's so crazy. I don't know that I can. I can't do that. I'm going to try. I know. I can't like I have absolutely no clue how you can do

Katharine McKee  52:11  

I don't really know how I'm doing it. Like if the motion was here.

William Harris  52:17  

I'm gonna spit all over my directs.

Katharine McKee  52:19

Like how am I doing it? Like, okay, so if you put like, this part of your tongue against the inside of your teeth, but you leave the tip. And then like, blow from here. Not doing

William Harris  52:29  

For me, I bet you can. Come drive. It's not coming. I can't do that. I will say at least similarly though, I can whistle and hum at the same time. Can you whistle and Oh, no. So there's my

Katharine McKee  52:54  

I think you're doing the thing that I'm doing but you're just like pressing your lips. I think it's the same.

William Harris  52:58  

Maybe? I don't know. So I'm literally humming it's like, and then I'm, you know, yeah, person. My lips loads.

Katharine McKee  53:08  

Yeah, I think it is the same thing. Oh, yeah. Cuz if you hum you hum here. Yeah, I think we're doing the same thing.

William Harris  53:15

Well, I was not whatever I was trying to do that I was trying to do it like you I was, I was just spitting all over everything. I need to wipe this all down. Okay, so wrapping it up. What is if you have one piece of advice for e-commerce brands, top piece of advice that you would say, Hey, start doing this, please do this. Don't do this. What is what is that number one piece of advice.

Katharine McKee  53:43  

Oh, the first one for everybody is take your popups down, they're dumb. The second one is take your chat bot down unless you're a doctor. And the third one is your hero section needs some information in it. So one, I would take a look at the size of the image I know you have an image there, I would take a look at the size of the image you have there and like shrink it down. And you can do a next gen converter. For anyone that sounds weird to anyone you can do a next gen conversion from whatever the JPEG is into something light. But make sure you have information in there like put and not an embedded text file and needs to be an actual standalone text box. So do not put it on top of the image needs to be standalone to be read. But put the information there. And the information is not your brand slogan The information is why this is a good product for someone or a good service for someone. I think that's that's gonna take all the relevancy boxes and tick all the quality of boxer good number of the quality boxes that you're probably getting dinged on and that will improve your traffic which will also bring your CPC is down. You're welcome.

William Harris  54:37  

Yeah. Okay. If people want to connect with you follow you work with you. What's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Katharine McKee  54:44

Oh, good question. I'm on LinkedIn, Katharine McKee. You can swing by our website which is morphologyconsulting.com. Hit me up on LinkedIn. You can me up on Twitter. You can find me on TikTok. They're not very good, but you can swing by

William Harris  55:01  

Perfect. That helps. We've got lots of opportunities and connect with you on one fell swoop here. And I appreciate you coming out and sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us here today.

Katharine McKee  55:11

See you. Thank you so much for having me. This is super fun. Thanks, everyone

William Harris  55:14  

for joining in.

Outro  55:18  

Thanks for listening to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.

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