The Value of Democratizing First-Party Data With Sean Larkin

Sean Larkin is the Co-founder and CEO of Fueled, a first-party data management company providing client and server integrations for e-commerce businesses. Sean is a SaaS founder and veteran agency growth marketer. His experience as a technologist building, purchasing, and selling businesses has aided his ability to assist companies wrestling with complex data and integration challenges.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Sean Larkin shares Fueled’s backstory and mission
The difference between first-party, zero-party, and third-party data
What does it mean to democratize data?
Why owning your data is an asset for your e-commerce business
The value of leveraging open-source tools in data analysis
How e-commerce merchants should prepare for the future of data management
Why Sean is passionate about democratizing data

In this episode…

The use of third-party data has steadily decreased and is being replaced by democratized first-party data strategies — putting e-commerce businesses at risk of losing years of data. How can you keep your company from losing valuable consumer data?

Democratizing allows e-commerce businesses to control their data rather than relying on external platforms to store gathered information. Implementing resources for data ownership protects your company from losing insight into website traffic and other consumer activity. Sean Larkin, an experienced technologist, recommends that e-commerce business owners install first-party tools to funnel information to a data warehouse where your collected material is stored safely.

On this episode of the Up Arrow Podcast, William Harris welcomes Sean Larkin, Co-founder and CEO of Fueled, to discuss democratized data and its value to e-commerce business practices. Sean also shares the benefit of leveraging open-source tools and how merchants should prepare for the future of data management.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode...

This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Eluymnt is a performance driven e-commerce marketing agency focused on finding the best opportunities for you to grow and scale your business.

Our paid search, social, and programmatic services have proven to increase traffic and ROAS, allowing you to make more money efficiently.

To learn more, visit www.elumynt.com

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:03

Welcome to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris, featuring top business leaders sharing strategies and resources to get to the next level. Now, let's get started with the show.

William Harris 0:15

Hey everybody, William Harris here. I'm the founder and CEO of Elumynt. And I'm the host of this podcast where I will be featuring experts in the e-commerce Industry. We're sharing strategies on how to scale your business and achieve your goals. And I have a really exciting guest here today. Today I have Sean Larkin. He is a professional goat farmer Lee and artists and soap maker. He's also a technologist who spent the last 18 years helping companies wrestle with complex data and integration challenges. He is the founder of field.io, a SaaS product designed to help mid market e-commerce brands win with first party data strategies. Sean, thank you for coming out here today.

Sean Larkin 0:53

That's great. Thank you. That was one of the best intros I've ever had.

William Harris 0:57

It's almost like you wrote it for you. Just kidding. This is good. I'm excited to have you here. I think there's a lot that you and I have talked about about data. That's exciting, I think that a lot of people have been struggling with with data that I'm excited to get into.

Sean Larkin 1:13

Yeah. Oh, 100%. I mean, I think with all the ios 14 changes affecting impacting Facebook advertising, everybody's a little bit panic right now, particularly with how cautious people need to be with their budgets and things like that. It's just a really interesting time to be in this space. And there's a ton of opportunity. There's there is some risks for merchants that can't adopt these strategies more quickly. But I think focusing on the opportunities and just kind of how it can unlock personalization and this better relationships with customers is just going to like, you know, the the crisis is going to force a lot of innovation that absolutely you're gonna enjoy, you know?

William Harris 1:51

Absolutely. Before we get into the good stuff, the meat of the conversation, there's two people I want to thank, first of all, I want to thank Britt, Brook, shoreward Sherwood I think I mispronounce that Brooke Sherwood for introducing us. So thank you, Brooke. And I also want to at least announce real quick that this our sponsorship, this episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is an award winning advertising agency optimizing e-commerce campaigns around profit. In fact, we've helped 13 of our customers get acquired with the largest one selling for nearly 800 million. And we were ranked as the 12th fastest growing agency in the world by Adweek. That said, moving on to the fun stuff, Sean Fuel.com. It's, it's you know all about data. But I like to know the backstory. Why? Why did you create Fueled.io in the first place? Yeah, well,

Sean Larkin 2:43

you know, I think I've, I've spent most of my career like I am a goat farmer, I would love to talk about goats at some point. I always want to

William Harris 2:50

talk 100% When can we get we have to talk.

Sean Larkin 2:54

We have to talk about God. But outside of goats, you know, I've spent most of the last 20 years helping companies with big integration problems online, you know, so I was really big into the Drupal community and open source project, wrote the my company, one of my agencies wrote the Salesforce integration for Drupal. And we were focused on nonprofit advocacy and things like that, and really helped lots of really large nonprofits, Humane Society, Southern Poverty Law Center, like big name, nonprofits, like build out really personal digital experiences, fundraising experiences between those two systems. So like, that's my entire career. It's just been like, how do we get things talking to each other? How do we have websites and different tools talking and so you know, about, it'll lead into the goat farming stuff at some point. But I got into e-commerce about five years ago, and really realized that like a lot of the problems that I like to solve about integrations were affecting commerce merchant. So I got really deep into built like implementing big, what are called customer data platform, so things like segment or in particle like yeah, building out these big integration to get e-commerce platforms, talk to other tools. And so I was, you know, again, implementing a lot of the big enterprise commercial offerings, had a really good career doing that. And it was super fun. But just realize that like, about two, three years ago, that there was too much friction in that space. And that there was an opportunity to really productize some different tools that could just make all of this stuff just so much easier, so much more valuable to kind of emerging and mid market e-commerce brands. So so, you know, we'll probably go into a lot more details here. But like, in short, like I built Fueled to be able to help brands that I love, just be able to collect data, and better activate data to drive campaigns, analytics, things like that. So in broad strokes, that's kind of what you

William Harris 4:58

want. I liked the way that you I'd like the way You explained it the idea of just, you know, advocate for change in previous life here. And you talked about like, helping things communicate and talk to each other. And that's what you're doing with data. And I appreciate that even from like, let's just say, people perspective, a human perspective, being able to talk to each other. And I feel like that's even true right now in let's just say, in the human world, where a lot of times, we struggle to even just have those basic conversations with one another and talk the same language, we might be saying, we might actually be speaking the same physical language or a theory of language, whichever one you want to say that this is your like English or whatever. But we're not speaking the same things. And I think that that's where there's a lot of miscommunication among people. And I think that the same thing that is happening for data, kind of to the same point where we can look at the same data, same sets of data, same same analysis of that data, and we can still come away with wildly different conclusions about what that means and how to act and where to go. And I think that's one of the biggest issues that I see keeping a lot of businesses from going forward and succeeding is there, they've got the data, and they're not sure what to do with it, or they're not sure if they could trust it. I think that's kind of what you're getting at here.

Sean Larkin 6:10

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So you know, like nothing that we're doing with Fueled in and of itself is really customer data platform, and big enterprise tools that get data piped from one place to another, like that stuff's been around. Really, for the last like five years and prominence. 10 years, technically, but like in the last five years, enterprise, that's been a big thing. You know, what's really different about what we're doing, is we have a really strong point of view on e-commerce, you know, so I love partner, we partner all the time with a big enterprise CDP's segment. I mean, Denver segment has a huge staff here, we throw parties we hang out, we go to happy hours, like em particle, same thing, just wonderful people, and a wonderful product. But like, because these are big enterprise tools that are built for every kind of use case under the sun. While they can do a lot for e-commerce, merchants, they just the e-commerce merchants are left trying to figure out like, Well, how do I implement this? And to your point, like, how do I know if the data is accurate? How do I know that I'm collecting the right data? And what does all this stuff mean? And so, you know, we're really just trying to build on the shoulders of all these other great, incredible technologists teams, to build something that's very specific has a strong point of view, around e-commerce, you know, yeah. And so again, it cuts out a lot of the time to take these things live, it builds trust on teams, because they don't have to figure it out on their own. Everybody knows that, like, we know what e-commerce merchants needs to collect and how they need to use data. So, you know, I think it our product can move a lot of anxiety for e-commerce teams that are hearing everywhere about like, first party data, zero party data, and you know, all this stuff, but have no idea where to start. You know, and that's really, you know, that's one half of why I do this, like coming from nonprofit advocacy, like, you know, it's, you know, my goal is to help merchants make more money online 100%. But I sleep really well at night, knowing that I'm helping people that I care about that are doing innovative stuff, do things better, you know, I mean, I imagine you feel the same William but like, you know, especially with like the iOS 14 stuff, and just how that's really hurting, or merging mid market brands, like, you know, I said, I say a lot that like we're helping democratize data, we're really, you know, my goal is to help brands that I care about, when in a world where Facebook and Apple are just fighting it out in the name of privacy, when really all they're trying to do is just, like, own everything and fight with each other. You know, like, so many great brands right now are just dying, because of changes to first party or third party tracking, and things like that, like the merchants are really struggling with increasing advertising costs. And as a result, you know, I mean, none of us want poorly targeted ads on our Facebook or Instagram feed, but like, I think most of us want really cool things that we can buy, you know, and things that meet our personal needs. And right now like cool companies are dropping off and you know, we're all like, gosh, I hope we're not all buying from Teemu here shortly you know nothing against the move but like, I don't want to and Amazon to be my only shopping experiences online.

William Harris 9:37

Yeah, and I don't think they will be but I know what you're saying though, where it's like it becomes a lot easier or harder, easier to shop. They're harder for brands to reach the people that they want to reach and and I can remember you know, when all the ios 14 stuff first came out. There was there was a lot of people that were absolutely like you said struggling and I can remember brands coming to And they were saying, Hey, we had our agency pull back on our ad spend because we need to have a higher row as in platform. And they were so locked on to this platform number. And as a result of that their overall profitability went down. They weren't covering their overhead and they'd come to us and we'd look at their, their, you know, p&l is a lot of people share their p&l with us. And we're looking at this saying this is, you know, this is a recipe for disaster, I actually wrote a really long article, I want to say it's like 7000 8000 words, talking about the row as death spiral, because I saw people getting into this deskbar was like, oh, we need higher row. So we do this, we decrease, here we go, then they're pulling back on all of the things that they actually needed to do to grow the business. Because the attribution just wasn't showing up in platform and not having the right data and having the right instruments just like in an airplane causes a death spiral. The same thing was happening to businesses, it was causing a death spiral to their business. And so to your point, you know, helping businesses be able to succeed is a very rewarding thing. For me, as well, like you were mentioning here, where, knowing that I can help them to better be able to solve the problems in their business, that feels really good. That's a very rewarding thing to know that you've you've given them the ability to sleep a little bit better at night as well.

Sean Larkin 11:17

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So yeah, it's the it's the and it's neat to be able to, yeah, a lot of times do it's like, and I'm sure you feel this all the time. It's like, you know, merchants come in with one specific problem that our platform can solve, you know, so we have, at this point, over 1200, merchants that use us for their Google Analytics for connector, you know, so we have a first party pixel. That's really tried and true. If you install us, we're in the Shopify and Bigcommerce marketplaces, install our app, I because I do it all day long, like, depending on my internet speed, I can set up GA for in under three minutes for a merchant start using using our app, you know, the page load times that hold me back. But But yeah, you know, so a lot of merchants come in just because of that pain problem, meaning GTA four is really different from the Universal Analytics, there aren't really great tools. Some of the native integrations for Bigcommerce, and Shopify just aren't really mature yet. And so we do a lot better job, you know, but we have merchants come in for that, we offer that for free. And then suddenly, as we start kind of a dialogue, and we start kind of talking about how they're using first party data, and what the opportunities are, it's really fun, because there's these like, Aha moments where they're like, oh, like, that's a problem that I have. But I've never been able to articulate it and build console for it, you know, so it's me to kind of be building public and to, you know, to be on this journey with our merchants, like helping them on this, like, road to operationalizing first party data, zero party data, you know,

William Harris 12:55

okay, I want to talk about first party, zero party, third party, you know, it's it gets thrown around a lot. And so you and I might be at a point where we're like, I'm over talking to about that. But for people who are listening, there's a lot of people who might be listening and saying, I've heard it thrown around enough, but I don't understand it. I jokingly say that we're going to eventually get to, you know, AI data, right, like imaginary data, as far as square root of negative one type data, because we're going from from first party, we're just gonna keep going further and further down the line from third versus zero to I hear, but, you know, third party data. You know, I think everybody's well aware that third party data is it's pretty much just a bygone thing. For the most part, I don't see that really coming back a whole lot more for a lot of businesses in a significant way. Google's getting on board with that as much as well. And so that's very, very few people are going to have a lot of significant third party data. Is that kind of what you're seeing as well.

Sean Larkin 13:50

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think so. I mean, to break it down. And I'm going to steal an analogy from a guy named Ian Jordan, who works for a company called tadpole. That's a really great agency. But he kind of describes it, you know, first party data is like, you know, you go and you meet your neighbor next door, and you say, hi, you know, so it's like data that you collect when somebody visits your website, sure, and engages with your website, zero party data. To be honest, I don't know why they call it zero party, dramatically. It should be second party. It's data. It's like, if somebody fills out, somebody fills out a form, somebody signs up for an email newsletter, you know, so it's to beat the analogy to death. It's like your neighbor gives you a pie or whatever. And you're like having dinner with your neighbor. third party data, you know, it's kind of like you're like digging through your neighbor's trash to learn about, you know, like, data that you're not collecting on your own. You're getting it in old days, you know, pre iOS 14, because these pixels would track you across the entire internet and like, every little thing And you do like people would know about it, you know? So yeah, third party data is definitely going away. I mean, there's still going to be it is interesting. You know, there are some interesting companies like Faraday that are in kind of the machine learning space that are combining machine learning with a lot of purchased third party data. wunderkin, there's some other tools out there that are are buying a lot of data. But like, that's becoming a really expensive proposition. And I think the other thing, and this is probably a good thing, the quality of that third party data dropping? Yeah, because it's just harder to collect. And so, you know, everybody's kind of using the same slightly, nobody wants to talk about where they bought the list kind of data, you know, sir, so yeah, I mean, it definitely is kind of going away. I think there'll always be some amount of it. But yeah, it's like, you can't really rely on it anymore. You know, the value is not super high.

William Harris 15:53

Yeah. And so, you know, in talking about first party data, and zero party data, you know, you talked about democratizing data. And I think that's a really, it's an interesting concept, let's call it that. The idea of, of you owning your own data, that's seems like that makes a lot of sense. But when you talk about democratizing data, explain that. What does What do you mean by that? Yeah,

Sean Larkin 16:14

you know, so when I, when when we refer to democratizing data, you know, that's shorthand for really democratizing first party data strategies for us. You know? So there's Yeah, so that's, like a really critical thing. And then what goes hand in hand with that? Your point is, like, letting merchants own their own data, you know, so but let's start there first, like why? You know, like, as is probably most of your listeners know, Google's about to sunset, Universal Analytics, you know, so beginning of began,

William Harris 16:46

by the way, I don't like that I like my UA, and I haven't gotten used to GA four.

Sean Larkin 16:51

Oh, yeah, GA four is wrong. I mean, it's really powerful as a tool that powers machine learning algorithms for like, Sure, performance Max campaigns and Google ads. And I think that's like, you know, somewhat of a side note, but like, Yeah, I mean, GA for I think people, what people need to understand is like, it's not it's not a reporting. No, no, like not to say Google. No, and then Google doesn't care. Right? Like, they figured out I think they figured out that they've kind of lost that battle and enterprise to Adobe analytics, and, you know, Adobe, iterable, not editable amplitude, like really best in class kind of tool. Sure, no. But what you know, what GA for does well is let you capture a wide range of event data, and then send that data to Google ads. And then that really powers the machine learning behind like performance Max campaigns, p max campaigns, stuff like that. But yeah, but yeah, in deprecating first touch, last touch attribution models, like they're really just saying, We don't care how you want to look at your data, it doesn't matter to us, you know, and what's, you know, getting back to the earlier point, what's really scary is like, all these merchants that have 10 years worth of Universal Analytics, or more, right, we're about to lose all of that. So I don't know that people understand that part. Like, it's one thing that like, in the beginning of July, or mid July, or whatever it is, UA is going to stop collecting data. But like 30 days after that they're deleting that data.

William Harris 18:16

Like, I don't think a lot of people realize that. So how is just gone? What should they do about it?

Sean Larkin 18:22

Well, I mean, I think one, the big thing is learn. Yeah, so and that's like a core thing to us. Like, you know, we have this Google Analytics for connector, you know, Fueled is a first party pixel. So it's a tool, yes, dollars on your site. We also integrate with Shopify Bigcommerce, we also integrate with a lot of other sources of first party and zero party data. But for, you know, for the click through data, you install it on your site, and we start piping all that data into GA for we have paid plans that are more kind of like a customer data platform, where, you know, you essentially like point us at a data warehouse. And so we send the data to GA for we send it to a whole bunch of other places, including a data warehouse, you know, and with the price of data warehousing, like that used to be kind of a scary term, to set up a data warehouse. But like, honestly, at this point, you can set up like Google BigQuery and like, an hour simple, and it's cheap. It's like 50 bucks. Yeah,

William Harris 19:19

it's pennies. Yeah.

Sean Larkin 19:20

Yeah. You know, and so, you know, so you set up a data warehouse, Google BigQuery, Amazon, redshift, snowflake, there's a bunch of math there. And then like, we just start piping all that raw data to your warehouse, you know, so what's cool about that is like, you own it, you have the exact raw data, you know, yep. And then from there, you know, it gets kind of technical, but we offer a lot of open source tools that let you start manipulating that data in the Data Warehouse, do what we call like stitching, build attribution models on top of it. And you know, we're productizing all of that, right. So we're bringing we actually are building out a big open source analytics product that we're really excited about. That's kind of phase two for our company, but like And so, you know, we'll handle all that for most merchants that are just like, hey, like, just do it for us. But even if they want to do it all, for them, the core thing that's important to me is they own that data forever, you know, you're gonna draw forever, like you own it, like it. Yeah, that's, you know, and so like, every single event, every single click, every single Add to Cart, every single remove from cart, every page view, every product, you, you know, we capture all that raw data, you get the UTM codes, get the referring URL, you know, you get all of that raw data that goes into your warehouse. And then inside of the warehouse, we offer a lot of open source tools that let you, you know, understitch the events together, so under understand how one customer is going through. And the other thing is, you can manage your own attribution models in your data warehouse. So um, yeah. So you know, and that's like a core differentiator, we're still building this, I don't want to say like, oh, yeah, like, just like, it's caught me off, and I'm better than triple Well, North beam, you know, we're still building out the analytics tools. But, you know, again, with this idea of democratizing the use of first party data, were all of that stuff, it seems that, you know, we're we have proprietary pipes to get all the data into the data warehouse, just because it's complicated. And there's not a lot of value in open sourcing it like nobody could run our code. It's just, it's a big, complicated, really powerful system. But once that data hits the warehouse, everything we do is transparent. You know? Yeah. You know, again, like triple Well, North team, I'm sure you use them all day long. Yeah, they're great. They're great products, but like, the thing that I don't like about them is one, you don't own the data they do. They're never given it back to you. I mean, I don't think they're not going to use it for nefarious reasons. But the bottom line is, you don't you don't get it. And two, they have these really cool attribution models. But it's very bro tack, and, you know, and they're probably if they're listening are gonna be annoyed by that. But like, you don't know how it works, right? Like, their algorithm. That's their moat, in like VC terms, like is their algorithms and they battle it out to say, Who has the best algorithm? In my I don't believe in, I believe that these models should be open source, I think that merchants should be able to tweak them, I think that you should build long term confidence and and with your, your customers, like, Transparency is key, you know, so yeah, you know, what we're doing is, you know, we'll fully host everything in terms of our analytics offering, but like all the all the attribution modeling, it's, it's all in code using what's called DBT, it's a big, very popular tool for working and manipulating data in the warehouse, you know, all that stuff transfer. So if you want to tweak the algorithm, you want to give more weight to certain sources, things like that, you know, that will let you do that, you know, so if you want to run, first click, last click, wait, you know, whatever you want to do, we're our goal is to support that, you know, and also to, you know, if you want to use another BI tool, that's great. Like, again, first and foremost is we want to, like, make sure people own the data, they can do whatever they want with it, you know, and I think

William Harris 23:14

that's, that's, that's the thing, that's really a complete mindset shift. That's different from a lot of other things. You mentioned a couple of other tools, both of which we use, we love and even just the idea of a moat, in general, I don't have a problem with companies setting up a moat, we've got moats around stuff that we do, right, it's part of what we're trying to do. And that's one way that you, you know, try to make things profitable for your business. And there's, there's a, you know, we talked about this in an ethics class in college, I remember and it's, you know, there's an ethical dilemma, sometimes of like, between, you have an ethical obligation to, let's say, your shareholders to be able to return profits, and you have an ethical obligation to the world to not destroy it. And, and there's this, you know, there is like this line that you have to it's a dilemma. And it's fair right to be able to say that it is a dilemma between these. But I like where you went with the idea of saying, Hey, this is your data, it is data that existed on your website, you should have the ability to have the day, it's kind of like you have your access to your own health records. Well, it's your body, you should have access to that data. It's great for the doctor to have access to it too. But you know, it's really nice people to say, hey, I want to actually take my health records over to this doctor, same thing with this, you say, Hey, I've got this data. And I want to take it over to this algorithm or this algorithm to see what it thinks about my data. And I think that's a perfectly reasonable thing, because we're right now just at the infancy of a lot of this AI and algorithmic and machine learning stuff to start on interpreting and understanding things and to have it locked within all of that data locked within one particular platform with no way for you to necessarily take that data and see how another algorithm would interpret that data and understand and what it would do with that. I think that you're doing yourself a really big disservice As a business, you should own your data, you should find a way to make sure that you have all of that data stored for as long as you possibly can. And because two years from now, who knows what the you know, baby brother or baby sister of ChatGPT is and in Bard and where that goes and what you're able to do with that, and, and if you have your data locked in, or just a whole nother platform that you can't access and use to, to figure it out, what you want to do from that, you're just stuck. And that's a really frustrating spot to be. So I like this idea of democratizing the data and owning your data.

Sean Larkin 25:33

Yeah, and it's cheap, you know, like, like, warehouse space is pretty cheap, we actually get super nerdy, but like, we, we actually have the ability to write all this data to what are called, like, flat files, like s3 buckets. And, you know, so you would write it to s3 instead of a data warehouse, and then that's where it gets, like, stupidly cheap. Like with s3, you could write, you know, we've written, you know, 50 million records to an s3 bucket on Amazon, and it's like, $3 a month to host it, you know, it's like, Sure, so, so inexpensive, you know, so, yeah, I think you're right. And, you know, then that's another thing like Brooke Sherwood mentioned that the head of it, she's on my team, she mentioned this a lot, too. It's like, you know, your, your data is only as good from the day you start collecting it, right? So like, you know, even you know, even if you don't, even if you're not ready to start thinking about, like, how am I gonna use machine? Yeah, on top of all this data, how am I going to activate it? How many gonna use it for personalization? You know, my, I would encourage people, and obviously, I'm biased. I have a product that does this, but like, just start, like, start collecting it now. Yeah, you know, because in three months, you have it, right. Like, don't start this journey. You know, later, you know, it's almost like, you want to get in shape. And you don't have a gym membership. But like, you can start eating healthier today, you know, like, yeah, steps that you can take on a journey, you know, but only from the time that you start collecting, you know? Yeah, you know, so, you know, and again, like, I think, you know, it might not I'm pretty, radically open source when I can be

William Harris 27:14

where you are, you're in the Drupal days. Right. Like, yeah, open source from the beginning.

Sean Larkin 27:19

Yeah, I mean, that's what got me into, like I was back in the day, like I back in like, early 2000s. I was a, I was a raft guide, and a whitewater kayak instructor looming out of my car, and like,

William Harris 27:33

in a van down by the river, literally, yeah.

Sean Larkin 27:37

Toyota Scion, like four kayaks on top of it. You know, like, living out of tents a lot. And like, I had a girlfriend at the time, I was running a website, and it was built in Drupal for any for, like a kayaking company. And like, she was like, Hey, you should get on Greg's list and start building websites with Drupal. So I started doing that at night to kind of make extra money. And yeah, just I couldn't afford Drupal books. So this was back when everybody was buying O'Reilly books in three Oh, yeah. And so, you know, I would just go to piles bookstore in Portland, and they had a separate building for all the engineering books and stuff like that at the time. And like, I would just camp out on the floor reading books that I didn't have money to buy, to try to learn how to do all this stuff perfectly, you know?

William Harris 28:25

Well, that's another open source opportunity right there. The library, right, like, like open source education books, like there's so much opportunity there. What year was this? Are you thinking, right, like, I think you mentioned before, like 15 years ago, I'm trying to think, yeah, this

Sean Larkin 28:38

was like, getting old. This was like, 2000. So my, I started doing like, Drupal in like 2015 or so I guess. That's when I started doing it. i Yeah, just my, my Drupal user account just turned 16 So it can get a driver. I mean, I remember, oh, websites, running my Drupal code that I wrote 10 years ago.

William Harris 29:03

That's awesome. You know, when you said Drupal, it took me back to I remember getting involved in Drupal just a very little bit. And this would have been maybe 2002 1006 Maybe. And I am not a developer, by any stretch of the means. But a friend of mine, Ryan Schmidt has got a company called Sky catch fire in Ohio, which is where I grew up, and I remember him getting me on it. And I you know, I'm a marketer, and so I can remember, you know, I was looking at Drupal and he's like, Oh, you really should do Drupal instead of WordPress, again, like 2006. And, you know, I tried and played around with it. I was like, No, I'm a WordPress guy. Like, I can't figure out Drupal well enough. But it was just funny. I mean, like you even said this the things that went through my mind I remember I'm going to just as a complete tangent, just blast from the past. There was a thing that you could do for like, animated text and that was like a really big thing I remember back in like two either early 2000s where it was like, like they had dragon tax and it was like this thing that could you populate this different code. And that no, it's just really funny going back to my Drupal days, but back to back to the, to the, to the rafting and stuff like that I interrupted there. So rafting and Drupal and open source and just how that is, you know, an ethos basically for you.

Sean Larkin 30:19

Yeah, I really, you know, like I like our company, and I can't take credit for most of this code. I'm an engineer, but I'm a terrible engineer, I'm the last person that should ever be writing code in my company. But, you know, we So back in the day, I started this company with a business partner, and he'd written MailChimp, integration for Drupal, and he just wrote it, for his own website, gave it away, got up to about 1000 installations, 2000 installations. And so we reached out to MailChimp back in the day, just like 2008 and said, like, hey, like, do you want to take this over? We can't support all this customer support stuff that's coming in. And they were just like, well, how much would it cost for you to just, like, continue to integrate and build open source stuff on top of MailChimp API's and so like, we, they were paying us 1000s of dollars a month just to release and improve this app. We got, I think like 60,000 installs, you know, all sponsored by MailChimp. And, you know, so like, you know, that's, that's really proof what's proven to me that open source can work and, you know, again, like our pipes are closed source, it's all built our whole platforms like serverless AWS stuff, and to be honest, like, you know, like I said, before, we could open source but no one would know what to do with it. But then once the data hits the warehouse, that's where open source can work. And, you know, what's interesting is, you know, e-commerce, is this, like $5.7 trillion a year industry. As far as I know, there's no really like strong open source analytics products out there that are specific to e-commerce, you know, you've got cool things like, you know, Snowplow Analytics, which is open source attribution. Really cool tack, we look up to them a lot, use a lot of their stuff. But, but again, like they support e-commerce, but it's not their only business, that they're only point of view. Yeah, it's really cool open source analytics tools like metaphase. And super sad. But like, again, like, yeah, you install them. And the merchants like this is cool. Now what? You know,

William Harris 32:17

well, that's what you just said, it's open source where it matters. And I think that like the, the thing that you mentioned is like, it's open source at the data level two, where it's like versus open source, like the code level. And I think about it like a car. I always like I like analogies, right? But I think about it like a car where it's like, what's open source at the idea where it's like, I can decide, let me be it's an E shift, right? So okay, let's go back manual manual shift is like what a lot of people have been dealing with their data for years and years, and then we've got the automatic. So that might be some of the other analytics tools, tools that are out there that are just going to automatically do it for you, you don't have much say over how it's being done. And then you've got the shift, you're saying why what's some of the control, I want to be able to say whether I want to be in, you know, first or second, no paddle shift on the steering wheel, and you can, you can make those decisions about like how you want to operate at that point in time. And that's what matters. What I don't necessarily need in the car is I don't need open source. And the idea that I can replace all the parts in the engine myself, it's like, that's fine, but I don't know what I'm doing in the engine, and I don't want anything to do with it. I'm gonna mess the engine up. And, and I think that's kind of what you're saying with like, the idea of the code where it's like, the code maybe isn't the open source part, that's fine. Most of the majority of people don't need to edit or want to edit the code, they just want to have the opportunity to play with the data in the way that they want. So that's its source. What matters?

Sean Larkin 33:27

Yeah, totally. And, you know, there's very strategic kind of go to market value here for us to right, like, the the reality is, the majority of like, mid market merchants doing 50 million a year in revenue, aren't going to say to a developer, like hey, go learn this stuff, host it, do it all yourself, you know, yeah. Like they're gonna pay us to host the whole thing, offer the whole thing to them. But for me, and this is going to be extremely judgmental, call me out for it. I'd rather build trust with my merchants on my algorithm, because it's all open source, and they can see it versus doing really funny, expensive paid advertising that says, Trust me, bro, we're cool. And we're going to take care of well, we've been through

William Harris 34:13

that before. I mean, that happened a lot of times with Let's even say like old school attribution where, you know, Google's taking credit for it. Facebook's taking credit for email saying credit for it, you know, it's one purchase, but everything's taking credit for it. And you didn't necessarily always know whether it's 12 Oh, it's 28 Day one click. I walked into an account one time they were using another tool. I won't say what it is, but it's another one of the big let's say retargeting platforms that are out there. And they had a really high row as I forget what it was. But But I remember looking at it and there was a 90 day click 90 Day View attribution window and you're like, Well, I mean you're retargeting 100% of your people with like, Matt, like they had a frequency of something like 170 right over the course of 30 days and it's like, it's literally just taking credit for every single purchase that comes through because every person is seeing this 170 times a month. And it's going back 90 days on his view attribution and so without that transparency now that tool had transparency in in that the person just hadn't looked deep enough in the platform, but it is that idea where it's like you you want to have that transparency as far as like well how are you getting to this row as number this Mar number this whatever number the transparency in how are you attributing this at the different attribution to the sales and stuff?

Sean Larkin 35:27

Yeah, and I you know, again, it's a philosophical thing like I would rather just like create value in the universe give away a bunch of cool stuff rather than like spend money on advertising you know? Yeah, and that's worked for me in the past and hopefully it works with Fueled with all the analytics stuff we're doing so I think it will be real quick I just complete aside probably break in the entire mode. You said you're from Ohio, we're in Ohio.

William Harris 35:50

Yeah. Canton, are you You know, some people in Ohio? I went to high school in Cincinnati. Okay, well, what four hours away from where we were Yeah, Canton, Akron. So I actually 2003 is when I graduated Lebron James. I did not get to play against him. But absolutely. I mean, we were in the same area. And I can remember just, you know, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal. All these guys come into town, and we're just like, you know, hitting my brother when I was like, you know, like this Michael Jordan. He's right here. He's coming to see this kid. That's as old as me. That's twice as tall and strong as me but like, I played basketball, but you know, nowhere near the LeBrons level.

Sean Larkin 36:23

Yeah, I think I don't know, people. Ohio is one of those weird states where as soon as you hear like, somebody's from Ohio, you want to ask what high school? Like yeah, sure. Like 20 years where like, you know, people in Ohio really care about like high school football, high school basketball.

William Harris 36:39

Absolutely. I remember if I remember correctly, the McKinley Maslen game. So I was from Ohio. So McKinley was in Canton, Maslin was right next to us and McKinley, Maslen game was the only football high school football game that was bet on in Las Vegas, at least at the time. Maybe that's changed, but at least that's what we told ourselves. And I can remember. I mean, they played at the Hall of Fame stadium. Right. And we're right there. And we had like airplanes flying overhead for a high school football game. I mean, it was it was a wild experience.

Sean Larkin 37:11

Yeah, I went I went to stay next. Maddie. So we Yeah. The next was a big swimming football school. And it was always like Kleenex versus some theme in northern Ohio. Like, absolutely. You know, St. Ignatius Loyola. Math. Like all those schools. Yours. Yeah. Anyway. No,

William Harris 37:31

I'm right there. It's a weird world. right there with you. For good measure. Oh, ah. What's that? Oh, ah. Oh, no. Yeah. Wait, what? Oh, Ohio State O H. i Oh, yeah.

Sean Larkin 37:48

So yeah, I love that's where I left after high school. Okay, so like, I gotta admit, like, my, my Ohio roots kind of ended after?

William Harris 37:58

Well, my brothers will tease me that my accent has ended too. And so we're really on a tangent on Ohio real quick. I can remember, in my daughter's will tease me about this, too. I would say my the way that I spoke in Ohio was very, very, I don't know how you want to say it. But it was just it's a very it's only an Ohio. And I would say no. I mean, and that meant Do you know what I mean? It's like six words that turned into to seven does not mean and you know now No, no, it I pronounce it Canton. That's how we pronounce Canton, Ohio is Canton. But here I've you know, been in Minnesota now for greater than a decade here. And I've started to enunciate my words a little bit more by O's have become a lot more of an O right. And so it's like, take the boat out on Saturday. Go fishing. Don't you know, I don't really speak like that. But it's gotten more that way. And my brothers definitely tease me when they hear me.

Sean Larkin 38:46

That's funny. That's awesome. Well, cool. That was a fun thing.

William Harris 38:51

Well, okay, so if I was gonna bring it, bring it around here, because I want to get into the personal stuff as well. And we're already there. But before we wrap into that, what are what are the let's just say the top, like two or three things that any e-commerce merchant right now should do from a data perspective to make sure that they're as as ready for what's coming as possible.

Sean Larkin 39:12

Yeah, so, you know, the first thing is, start capturing it with fueled or snowflake or a big CDP. Just like get all that raw, raw data, going into a warehouse. set it forget it, come back to it in six months when you have more time. The second thing is and it's just like a quick task. Just be ready to export all the GA or, I'm sorry, the Universal Analytics data out of your Universal Analytics property when you can, you know, so,

William Harris 39:47

again, good luck, do you have a tutorial on that or anything or like an article that we can go to?

Sean Larkin 39:53

I need to write it because I just kind of strategizing on this now. I mean, yeah, you know, the simplest thing is there are a lot of Good tools out there like five Tran or stitch that are called like what are called like ETL tools, extract transform load tools, like, just get one of those get your data warehouse, you don't even need to know exactly what you're exporting, but just like export all that data out, I will say I would probably export, you know, on a daily basis, like your aggregate data for daily basis, some of those exports were Universal Analytics can get really expensive, like they offer the ability to get like really granular, like how all your campaigns did on an hourly basis, right? It's overkill, you're never going to use it. And it's going to be 24 times more expensive than just saying, like, I just want the data on a day to day basis, it's not perfect. It's not going to stitch up together really well with your GA for data. But you can at least get like pageviews per day sessions per day unique visitors per day out. So that down the road, you can start blending it with your gap or GA for data. So yeah. And there actually are, it's a little bit more sophisticated, there are some tools that would allow you there's some other tools that would allow you to get that data into BigQuery, kind of automagically there's a lot there's actually a lot of tutorials on this, but I don't think it's on anybody's mind right now.

William Harris 41:18

We'll share because they're they're owned by the same, you know, BigQuery is Google Google Analytics is Google, there is an integration directly into that. And so there's a lot of ways to just,

Sean Larkin 41:25

yeah, just get it out. Yeah, you know, just start, you know, just grab that historical data, and start thinking about owning your data, you know, and then, you know, from there, you can kind of take a beat, and and start figuring out how you want to start operationalizing that data, you know, yeah, so in terms of operationalizing it, you know, it's a bit more nuanced, I think, you know, looking at, I think, starting to think about tools within your organization that are, you know, component based, or like, that's just a fancy word for saying the things that kind of can sit on top of a warehouse are things that kind of, like, let you that aren't like single purpose tools necessarily, like, continue to use your triple wails and your North beams and things like that, that's great. But like, you know, I'm, I think, start learning about, you know, tools like high touch, it's nerdy, but it's a reverse ETL tool, it lets you grab data out of a data warehouse and start using it for campaigns. And it's really awesome. Yeah, it's a great tool. They're a big partner of ours. You know, there's some other reverse ETL tools out there for activating data in a warehouse like census and things like that. But you know, just start, like thinking about like a database, or data warehouses, kind of like your source of truth and starting to build tools that can kind of operate in that kind of ecosystem, you know? Yeah. So that's kind of where I start, you know, there's a lot of kind of deep dives into how this stuff works, all that type of stuff, but I think the first thing is just like, start owning it. And then you can take a beat and learn at your own pace.

William Harris 43:02

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Definitely, please take a shot on his advice here and check out field it because this is it's coming and it's you need to be prepared. And you need that data. Jumping into the the personal section of of the chat, which I really liked doing, which is just you know, who is Sean Larkin? There's a lot that I think that it's fun to just get into the human side of things. And we kind of hinted at this already, but why are you the way that you are? Why do you care so much about democratizing data or democratizing anything? Like what makes you tick?

Sean Larkin 43:35

Yeah, well, I mean, we've talked about kind of the open source, nonprofit advocacy stuff I do. You know, I sleep better at night, knowing that I'm helping, you know, merchants make it financially and when from in terms of profitability, but also like, you know, I do really want to see a world where the small, smaller brands can really thrive, you know, so that's like, that's really important to me. That's also we'll get back to that we'll get into code farming.

William Harris 44:00

In part, okay, good. Everybody's been waiting. Yes. Yeah, at the moment is finally here.

Sean Larkin 44:05

Yeah. So yeah, and I say this at a personal experience. So, you know, I, I live in Colorado. Now I live in Portland grant agent, a really cool agency there with a co founder and then kind of had a baby that I wasn't really planning on. You know, not technically a conference baby, but like, a baby who was somebody who I met at a Drupal conference. And, you know, you know, wasn't exactly I'm sober now. Let's just put it that way. anymore. I used to, you know, networking, drinking hanging out I was a big, kind of the all that was kind of combined in my life early on, but

William Harris 44:48

that's not a bad place to meet somebody though. Let's go back to that for one second. Here. There's a lot worse places you can meet somebody than on a Drupal conference. You're meeting somebody who's like minded sharing similar values like similar work ethics, likely right ate like this. That's a really good thing. Yeah.

Sean Larkin 45:01

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think I, you know, yeah. So but yeah, it was, it was a neat part of my life. Drinking has now been a part of my life anymore, which has made my life a lot better over the last five years. I actually think like, we're within like two or three days of my five year anniversary of being sober. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. It's been a good journey for me. But yeah, so had a baby wasn't really expecting it moved out to Colorado sold the agency. And to be in my son's life. I just took a couple years off from working and you know, I had this little tiny one and a half year old and a new city that I didn't really know anybody in and so just had this I was kind of I definitely was just experimenting. And so like I started building a boat in my front yard. So I have like a big wooden drift boat in my front yard under a tarp that's not finished, and my neighbors all hate it. But I started like woodworking and then, you know, I thought my dog was lonely. So it's like, well, what if I bought my dogs and goats in the backyard just to hang out. And so

William Harris 46:08

naturally

Sean Larkin 46:10

ridiculous ideas that I just like, bought a goat that day that I had the idea and then ended up having to give that go to wag she did not have a good personality. And she had a little bit she knocked my dog across the backyard, but then got into it, like bought some good goats and like started raising goats and breeding goats and milking goats and then with my kid and he loved it. My kids saw a baby goat born in my backyard when he was like three. Yeah, he just, he just assumes that like everybody goats in their backyard. He's like, Yeah, this goat milk. And so I just kind of looked up like what is the most profitable use of goat milk and it ends up being making soap. So I started like very Breaking Bad style. Making go and making soap in my kitchen. You know, wearing a respirator the chemicals are all pretty rough. A lot of the shirts can get used making masks, so you have to get like permits for a lot of the chemicals and stuff. And like, just started making just 1000s and 1000s of bars of goat milk. So I was a wrestler. And so I was making them with like tea tree oil and like selling them to wrestlers, you know, antifungal antimicrobial soaps, and like, so long story short, like got into, like, you know, jumped on Shopify and start about, I guess, fibers, this is probably seven years ago, started trying to sell on Shopify, you know. And it was, right when, like, I kind of to be honest, I kind of got sucked into the performance marketing stuff, like working with, you know, there was so many people 10 years ago, who could just like print money, selling things like soap on subscription, absolutely. Facebook ads and stuff like that. And I think that kind of really peaked probably like six years ago, you know, and so, I hit the wave a little late, I think, on that, and, you know, really struggled with, like acquisition costs, you know, for my brand, and, you know, I'm making a bar soap that's like high end soap, it's like eight bucks a bar. But you know, you know, we're shipping and all that kind of stuff, my margin on a bar soap was, you know, not scalable, because it was in my, you know, if I was in a proper factory, I could have gotten that margin better. But like, basically, if I'm spending 20 bucks to acquire a customer and an $8, monthly subscription, and I'm making four bucks a month, like it's not sustainable to have like a payback time on that acquisition cost of like five months, you know, and so wasn't really able to make it work. But in all of that, and and trying all of that and getting back into tack and like running the clock, you know, cost analysis for subscription and looking at like different linear regression models for like subscription forecasting and all that stuff. Just realize, like, you know, there's a real need here, and it was time for me to kind of get back into tech. For a while, I still want to be a full time goat farmer. And I'm really hoping that like I can build field, do it well, make a good return on investment for my VC investors build this up for the next 510 years. You know, hopefully exit and then get back into full time goat farming.

William Harris 49:21

I got to know what kind of goats though because I so so there's a lot of different kinds of goats. Right? We don't have goats. We've got chickens. We've got we had ducks for a little while we had bees. What's that?

Sean Larkin 49:32

Ducks are great. I raised ducks for a while too.

William Harris 49:35

Yeah, well, so we weren't allowed to have ducks. I let me clarify that we live in the city. We've got about an acre here in Stillwater. 1010 blocks from downtown. We are allowed to have chickens. But my wife bought ducks as well anyways, just for fun and they got kind of big and noisy in that city made us get rid of them. But they were fun for a while. But I just learned next we just got to get native ducks, right? Hey, the wings aren't. They can fly away whenever they want to. But we she'd love to get goats. We can't get goats here. But some of the most fun goats I feel like that I've ever seen are like those fainting goats where they literally do just faint like he's scared, like, they just fall over and like, it's really funny. But what kind of goats do you have?

Sean Larkin 50:14

Well, I did tell my girls to a farm because I just, it just got too much. After I there was a moment at COVID where like, I had to backyard goats dog a cat and I had 20 Rabbits living in my living room, I got into like raising meat rabbits with my son, rabbits. Had one like my rabbit basically got pregnant that day she gave birth, which is you can actually rabbits can get pregnant before they give birth. It's wild. Like literally, literally like, in the course of like 35 days I went from two rabbits to 20

William Harris 50:48

Oh my god, I

Sean Larkin 50:49

just about like, when it started Fueled, I was like, I just need less going. So I did sell my girls like goats. But ah, I raised what are called like miniature Nubian goats. So Nubians are big milk goats. You know, you know, and so mine were miniature but like, miniature Nubian still weigh like 100 pounds apiece. So like, you know, I did have I live, I have like a Fifth Avenue in the city. And so you're technically allowed to have miniature goats in Denver. I'm, we're like, bored or borderline miniature, you know, I probably would do it anyway. And so basically, this is a lot of good biology here. Like Nubians can milk for about a year. If I do it over again, there's a breed called mini LaMancha. The LE monjas are a Spanish goat that can want to you know, they have to give birth, but they can actually be milked for like, 18 plus months after they give birth. And so they're great. The mini limiters are great, because they're smaller, you only have to breed them like every 18 months. You know, I was I was breeding like, every time, you know, so like, which was fun for busy having Yeah, lots of baby goats. But like, you know, it's a lot of work to have two, three baby goats in your backyard with a kid, you know, as a solo dad. So yeah, but that's what I want to get back. I just need to spend, you know, next 510 years building, you know, what I believe is a billion dollar company. And, you know, and then I can get back to farming.

William Harris 52:23

I love it. Yeah, you know, there's something about I feel like on on Twitter, I see a lot of people he's talking about touch grass, especially in the e-commerce DTC space here, everybody's talking about touch grass on the weekend. And this is something that is, you know, inherently biological for us to spend some time farming, you know, shoes off in the grass grounding. You know, not to necessarily sound overly metaphysical, but I think there's something about just, you know, even the ions and being able to be a part of that there's, there's a fogers within the soil, right. And so those fibers actually are basically like viruses that go and kill bacteria that are not good for you. There's, there's so much to be said, for just getting back into nature and doing that. So

Sean Larkin 53:04

Oh, yeah. 100% Yeah, and, you know, I think, I don't actually know, Minnesota, I feel like your guys are better off. But like Colorado, even Denver, like Denver, is not sustainable on its own food wise, like, there's been studies that said, like, if the highways were shut down, we really only have like, four or five days worth of food, you know, as a, you know, like, we're really, you know, not a strong agricultural place, it's just hard to grow stuff. And so, you know, urban agriculture, food security, you know, that's, that's what kind of got me into all this stuff, too. It's just like, wanting to be able to, you know, it's, you know, it's meat stuff. And some people are more sensitive to it, but like, it's important, with everything that went on with the elections and COVID, like, just an important value to me to know that, like, I can raise animals I can, I can share food, I can pickle food, I can like, just, like, take care of my family. And so, you know, as much as I love all this tech stuff, that's, I do, like, I'm not like a prepper or anything weird, you know, or not weird that judgment. I'm not like a prepper doomsday prepper. But like, I just, I like, knowing that I can do that stuff. And I can teach my kid how to do all that stuff.

William Harris 54:16

Those are skills that we, you know, had for 1000s of years that we were losing as generations go by. And so I think there's something important about that, you know, it's actually gotten, I think, expensive right now where you can send your kids to farm school, and that cost more than sending them to like, you know, some elite prep, you know, kindergarten or something like that. And it's just the idea. It's like, they're gonna go and they're going to interact with goats and chickens and stuff like that, because it's a lost art and a lot of parents don't have access to that and stuff like that. So I

Sean Larkin 54:46

yeah, like raising chickens, like you're doing like, Who would have thought that we'd have this avian flu driving the price of eggs to the roof, like, right, you know, like, you know, like, everybody talks about like, Oh, I'm gonna raise chickens and it's gonna be more of four suitable than buying it

William Harris 55:00

was not it was never affordable, right?

Sean Larkin 55:04

Starting to get close,

William Harris 55:05

absolutely. So, you know, we're coming up on time and I want to be respectful of your time here. The final thing that I want to do before I ask people, you know where they can go follow you ask you where they can follow you. I'd like to do at least one kind of silly game here at the end. So for you, what I wanted to do was, how do you laugh? And there's always many different types of laughs people have, there's the there's the little chuckle there's the chortle, right. And then there's the full on belly laugh, but it's like, what's your what's your, what's your Oh, that's kind of funny. And I'll give that a little bit of a laugh. And then once you're like, That's the funniest thing I've ever heard laugh.

Sean Larkin 55:42

We, I'm not sure that I can do this Anchorman. I think it's it's more I mean, I'm self conscious about my laughter. You know, everybody is I laugh, like, I'm actually the older I get the more my laugh just reminds me of my father, who's who's a wonderful person. But like, also like, he's my father. You know? Yeah. So it's like, I get really nervous because I'm like, oh, man, I just sound like my 70 year old dad. Especially now that I have a kid. It's kind of like a, like, gosh, I can't do Yeah, it's not like a belly laugh. It's a little bit more high pitch a little bit more in my throat. Yeah, I'm not great at it. You do it? What's your I won't,

William Harris 56:22

I won't be alright. Well, well, so I've got my I've got my you know, chocolate or whatever. But my full on belly laugh when it's the funniest thing I've ever done. You were saying like your dad. Apparently I get mine from my grandpa, my Italian grandpa loose Retta which I you know, don't really remember him. Unfortunately, too much. I think he passed away when I was in second grade. So I you know, I've gotten memories of him. But it's like, I don't remember how he laughed. But my mom tells me that I laughed just like him, which is hit back all the way laugh It's was right like that. And I don't know why. But that's how I laugh with my head all the way tipped back. And she's like, you get that from your grandpa. So that's my, that's my belly laugh, you know that you really got me going when my head goes all the way back and you see my nostril sticking up?

Sean Larkin 57:02

That's hilarious. Well, hey, thank you for this opportunity. You're a really great host. This is my first podcast, I think actually. So like you, you've broken me in here. And it's been pretty wonderful. You're really good at this. And I'm really excited to listen into future episodes and things like that, and just share the word about what you guys are doing.

William Harris 57:21

Yeah, well, I'm glad you're here. And I want to make sure before we go, too, how can people get a hold of you if they wanted to follow you? You know, where should they go to stay in touch?

Sean Larkin 57:31

Yeah, so the the website domain is fueled.io. So that's probably the easiest way like all of our social links are there just Fueled.io, Twitter, I think we're fueled-io. Sure. You know, so little black logo, there's a wonderful agency called Fueled, we are not them. They have like a little red logo. And they're very great team. We're Fueled.io. So that's probably the best way Sean_Larkin on LinkedIn. Okay.

William Harris 58:01

And we could add those links to the blog post here as well. So we'll make sure that

Sean Larkin 58:04

oh, yeah, that'd be great. Cool. Yeah. And I, you know, and I do want to be really clear, like, again, like, we're one of the nice things about being venture backed, is it gives us a lot of room and flexibility to just, like, talk to merchants and help people person, you know, so we're, we're really busy building product, but like, I love the fact that I get I get paid to just help solve problems. So, you know, I'm probably going to by saying this, there probably going to be a million people calling the app because a million people listen to this podcast, but you have questions. You know, people just have questions about Universal Analytics, GA for like, we're just here to help. You know, we're really active in our Slack groups, you know, we can we bring a lot of merchants and agencies in on Slack. And, you know, again, we just want to solve problems. We want to identify problems. So, you know, even if it doesn't lead to fueled installations, like, we're just here to help people, you know, so I would really encourage people just to reach out and let's talk about stuff.

William Harris 59:03

Awesome. We'll also link to your cell phone number two in the notes, so that way people could just text you directly. But seriously, though, Shawn, thank you very much for coming out. I really enjoyed our conversation here getting into a little bit of everything from attribution to Ohio to goats.

Outro 59:18

Thanks for listening to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris. We'll see you again next time. And be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.

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